Naughty SMA

[showtunesgirl]

info.babymilkaction.org/wyethroadshow

Hmm, SpiritedWolf, that letter about 'How's the feeding going?' is pretty dodgy. You would think that formula manufacturers would have learnt their lesson by now and know better than to send messages like that.

I'm sure they know only too well that 4-6 weeks is the stage when most wavering bf-ers give up too so it's very sly...

More to the point, however, it's an utterly stupid marketing strategy. If someone is struggling with bf then they will find some formula anyway and will most likely try out various brands, going with the one their baby seems to 'like'. They're not going to think 'oh I got that nice e-mail from the nice man at SMA / saw their stand at the shopping center. I'll go for SMA then'. I wanted to feed my DS HIPP Organic for example, trying to preserve some semblance of nutritional respectability, and he was having none of it. It just didn't agree with him. So I went with the brand that he seemed to digest best, not some brand I'd seen advertised. The whole campaign seems like a waste of money to me.

The thing is they are trying to foster brand allegiance - women remember what formula they feed their baby - my Mum remembers they scrimped so that they could give my brother SMA rather than National Milk (because it was better obv ) when she was told to stop bfing and she remembers me not taking SMA in a bottle so I was on baby rice mixed with Baby Ribena/baby Heinz apple juice to disguise the taste of the SMA at 8 weeks.

My Dad, on the other hand I don't think he really remembers whether we were breast or formula fed let alone which brands!

They want mums to feel good about the brand they chose - hence the clubs, coupons, stuffed toys, glowing babies in adverts - they aren't just competing against bfing they are competing against the other formula brands too, to win mothers over. Not that I think mothers should feel bad about formula feeding - I think they should feel confident in their choice and be assured they know how to make it up correctly and feed it safely. No amount of stuffed toys or ads that don't actually show how to do this will help.

"If someone is struggling with bf then they will find some formula anyway and will most likely try out various brands, going with the one their baby seems to 'like'. "

That is absolutely not what people do, on the whole. They really don't. In fact, there is a powerful myth that you should not chop and change brands because......um, well, no one knows the reason, 'cos there is no real reason. The infant formula market is based on brand familiarity and brand loyalty - there are screeds of market research papers (which I have read) showing this. It's the reason why, a generation ago, formula manufacturers paid mega-bucks to maternity units for the privelege of giving the formula away to them for nothing. That's right - the formula people paid the hospital.

"They're not going to think 'oh I got that nice e-mail from the nice man at SMA / saw their stand at the shopping center. I'll go for SMA then'." But this is exactly what they do (albeit unconsciusly) - now that hospitals are not permitted to do this 'single brand' thing, the formula manufacturers have to find other ways of engendering familiarity and the warm fuzzies that come with deciding what to feed your baby.

Deciding on how to mixed feed should be individualised - there is no way a one-size-fits-all programme can be devised. HCPs should be involved to help a mother decide on quantity and frequency, because although you can go some way with 'baby led' amounts and timing, that still does not tell you how many mls for your baby at that stage with that amount of breastfeeding and that particular desire to continue bf/return to full bf/wind down bf.

None of that has anything to do with a roadshow, because you will not get (and should not get) that information from a commercial roadshow, FFS.

And breastfeeding counsellors can help with mixed feeding but they cannot give precise general or individual guidance on amounts, because this is something an HCP - whose job it is to take clinical responsibility for this guidance - can calculate.

what about things like water?

I know you give water to FF babies in the summer, but not BF babies, but do you give water to mix fed babies?, or only give watere to mix fed babies when it's at least 50% formula or more?, that doesn't need to be personalised does it? and could be something that the formula manufacturer could maybe tell you?

you dont give water to ff babies either, not under 6mths, once 6mths and on soilds as well yes, offer water but under 6mths and the formula is balanced when made properly wiht the correct amoutn of water and you arent supposed to give them water either, there is no need to.

too much water is not good for babies, there has been stuff about it on mnet.

really? that sort of thing might be covered in a formula road show!

of course the ideal thing to do would be to BAN breast feeding groups and call them FEEDING groups and make them for everyone with good information about all kinds of feeding and weaning and proper sisterly peer support (as if!)

i doubt it somehow, there is no need for a formula roadshow what the formula companies SHOULD do is give clear instructions and advice on the product esp about mixing it with 70 deg water and explaining why etc, then they can say how to make it up in advance safely, ie hot water, cool quickly under running tap and then in the fridge or make it up when needed and cool quickly.

your hv should be able to tell you that babies dont need water tho some still say they can have some when its hot etc. its a bit of a discussion point on mnet sometimes as some are dead against water for ff babies and some say a few sips etc is fine, i cant remember the science behind it but basically formula that is properly made up will give a baby all the water they need. and there is concerns about electrolite (sp) balances etc when a baby has too much water.

roadshows and freebies are just bollocks, proper information on a product and with regards to mixed feeding i think its one of those things where you would have to judge by your own child, ie think about what feeds you adn they most enjoy, when it would be convenient for you adn baby to doa bottle and then offer one, they recomend an amount on the packet depending on age/weight of baby but i would go with a small amoutn 2-3oz fora bfed baby to begin with and be guided by them i guess. bfeeding is about much more than food, they dont just bfeed when they are hungry which is why some bottle fed babies are happier if they can have a dummy/suck a thumb for that extra comfort.

i wouldt ask a formula company for advice on mixed feeding because they know little about the reality of bfeeding and their advice is likely to be crap tbh, a bfeeding counsellor would be of more help and equally your hv should be able to help, but again not all are that good on bfeeding.

Ban breastfeeding groups? Really?

The word ban just doesn't do it for me.

yes they exclude people, why not FEEDING groups? FFers don't get their own group that excludes BFers, nor should they! there should be FEEDING groups, where all mums can go for advice, a chat, support, to get out of the house...

that would cut out women turning to formula companies for support and advice when they don't find it else where

it would go a little way to re-join the feeding "camps" that mums can find themselves in

It would be a good way to get across up to date messages about giving water or correct temperatures and storage..

and does it really normalise BFing to put BFing mums in a distinct physical group?

do you think that BFers cannot listen to BFing advice if there is someone FFing in the room?

But there are mother and baby groups and toddler groups and playgroups and cafes and the park.

You genuinely would like to ban breastfeeding cafes because you feel excluded? That's a very narrow point of view.

"But there are mother and baby groups and toddler groups and playgroups and cafes and the park"

so can't BFers just go there too?
the answer is no because they need somewhere to go where there is TIME to discuss feeding where they don't feel they are bothering a busy GP or HV
but SO DO FORMULA FEEDERS, formula feeders need feeding support as much as breast feeders, its scary, there's loads of conflicting peer advice, HVs and GPs are rushed....

"You genuinely would like to ban breastfeeding cafes because you feel excluded? That's a very narrow point of view"

I want to ban the name, so that NOONE is excluded, and make them FEEDING groups, FEEDING cafes, FEEDING advisors. I want them to exist, but I want them to exist for everyone who needs them

gah on the one hand you don't want formula companies to be the loudest voice women are hearing, on the other hand you don't FFers should get the sort of service that BFers get at feeding groups? can't you see how those two things conflict?

Actually, it is the HV job to help with that, have you asked?

Though I have had plenty of conversations regarding formula in breastfeeding groups.

The majority of mothers formula feed. I have never met somebody that was desperate to formula feed and didn't manage, but plenty of mums that wanted to breastfeed but couldn't.

Brastfeeding cafes are naturally geared towards, well, breastfeeding. HV's are there to do a job, if BB cafes did that there would hardly be time for the breast stuff would there?

It seems to me like you have had a lack of advice. If you HV was that bad, maybe you should complain.

No I dont see how those things conflct monkeymoma. Most women used to breastfeed their babies till the formula companies and the health professionals started pushing formula down everyone's throat. It's taken a huge effort to try to re-teach mothers to breastfeed, please don't make it seem like formula feeders are hounded by the breastfeeders, it's not true. Unless you live in a country where the majority breastfeeds.

"Actually, it is the HV job to help with that" then why the need for breastfeeding groups at all?, because HVs are BUSY and breastfeeding groups offer an informal place where someone trained has TIME!! this is what ALL mothers need re feeding

I'll put it another way:
if you want to take the power away from formula companies, take away the vacum people like me see them filling. I agree that they are not the ideal people to fill it AT ALL but you don't want feeding groups to take on the job! so who will?

the vacum exists, if it didn't then breast feeding groups wouldn't exist! FFers feel the same need for informalish but informed advice and a space where there is time to talk it over
GPS and HVs are rushed
toddler groups don't have any trained up to date feeding advisors, just lots of conflicting anecdotal personal advice (which has its place..)

As long as people like you deny that people who don't identify with breastfeeding groups need something similar, they will go to these roadshows to fill that need

and opening up breast feeding groups and making them FEEDING groups might up breast feeding rates as only people who are planning to or considering BFing are gonna go along to BFing groups, but if they were open FEEDING groups then people who are planning to FF would go along to find out about safe FFing, and in the process might learn something about BFing

There are loads of feeding themes that are common across FFing and BFing
and there are lots of concerns about FFing beyond whether to do it or not ("sucky" or hungry? wind, reflux, what is follow-on milk, when to wean. weight gain or lack of, growth spurts...). FFers aren't all set once they give formula, just like BFers aren't all set once they establish a latch

"Brastfeeding cafes are naturally geared towards, well, breastfeeding. HV's are there to do a job, if BB cafes did that there would hardly be time for the breast stuff would there?"

that is just bollocks! every breastfeeding group I ever went to was about 20-30% breast chat, 70-80% other chit chat, there's PLENTY of room for common themes and formula advice there too!

You're not excluded as a formula feeder from breastfeeding groups. It's you that used the word BAN (with capital letters). There IS formula advice in brastfeeding groups, I just have no desire to ban them so that formula feeding won't be excluded.

Also, your choice of words (bollocks) is pretty poor for what is meant to be a conversation.

then why not call them feeding groups? it would make them feel more open and people who wouldn't otherwise acess them might go to them instead of a SMA roadshow!

"You're not excluded as a formula feeder from breastfeeding groups"

and actually, that's not always true, a lady that ran a BF group that I spoke to on another forum said that they allowed FFers to the BLW session but the regular group was for BFers only (she didn't see why a FF would want to go to a feeding group when in some areas they are one of the few baby groups going on!)

This is from the Baby Cafe's website.

IIRC there was a study done on mix feeding group (support groups that didn't differentiate between ffing & bfing mothers) that showed that the bfing mothers would talk about an issue they were facing and rather than getting tips/info on working round the issue and continuing to bf they were instead offered suggestions of giving bottles/swapping to formula (I am almost positive though it may be a collection of anecdotes rather than a formal study).

If you don't have experience of bfing (or much past a few days/weeks) then you can't be expected as a lay person to know what is normal for a bf baby or know ways to not ff if that's not what the mother with the issue wants.

Also, some mothers are very hurt by the ending of bfing and it can be painful for them to sit in a room and hear a mum says 'X is happening but I don't want to formula feed I want to resolve this and carry on bfing' - that can be a slap in the face if X is the thing that lead to the end of bfing for them or just because the mum with the issue doesn't want to stop and give formula.

This just isn't fair on anyone - either the mum who's ffing or the mum who's struggling with bfing.

If you think your area needs a ffing group - approach the HVs/Infant Feeding Lead and ask about setting one up. That's how my local bfing group got started - mums wanted to help other mums bf and it went from there (incidentally that's how LLL got started too!)