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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Naughty SMA

164 replies

showtunesgirl · 06/06/2012 20:28

info.babymilkaction.org/wyethroadshow

OP posts:
monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 20:33

metal, you said there is info about mix feeding out there, so find in in relation to my scenario!
say I was ALREADY feeding a 2 month old every 3 hours during the day and every 5 hours at night, and I've had it! I'm not doing it anymore but would be willing to try mix feeding for a while to prolongue SOME BM.. how do I do it, I have a box of formula on front of me and a bottle! how much do I put into it if I'm still gonna do SOME BFs, and how many bottle do I give? do I give one in place of every BF or does it depend on how much they drink from the bottles??..
I think I've given enough details in my example for you to advise me if you're finding the advice so readily

midori1999 · 07/06/2012 20:34

Why do formula companies NEED to advertise? Everyone knows formula is available surely?

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 20:36

but truth, as I said to metal, say I am ALREADY feeding that way and am at the end... how many bottles do I give in place of the dropped feeds? how do you work it out?

the cartons tell you how much formula to give in 24 hours if you are exclusive FFing, metal tells me there's lots of info about mix feeding so should be easy for her to find out for me how much formula I should give a 50% BF 50% FF 50th percentile 2 month old if its really so easy to get the info!

usualsuspect · 07/06/2012 20:37

I don't see the problem Tbh.

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 20:41

can't anyone else see how confusing mix feeding is and what a vacum of info there is if you are trying to prolongue SOME feeding rather than switching straight to exclusive FF?

that's why people who would consider mix feeding, don't! and go straight to exl FF because there is at least some info on the carton about that!

TruthSweet · 07/06/2012 20:53

But you aren't comparing apples and apples, it's apples and oranges - not all bfs are to do with milk so you can't do a direct correlation between bfing and formula feeding and work out from there how much baby needs in a bottle.

That's the trouble, bfing isn't so much about getting milk in a baby as responding to biological urges (both with in the mother and the baby) - don't forget we are the only species who know why their babies suckle - no other animal knows that they just do it because their instincts say to and their baby does it.

Mix feeding is trial and error and working out what is going to work for each mother and baby pair - there is no 'give Xmls per Y time and do Z bfs each day' as it is going to be different every mother/baby pairing. BFing counsellors can help you navigate this and help you find a balance but they can't tell all mums to feed in the same way as it won't work.

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 20:56

" BFing counsellors can help you navigate this "

ba ha ha ha!
yeah!
they don't at all just tell you to keep exclusive BFing when you have explained that that is not gonna happen!

so noone call tell me what to put in a bottle on day one of mix feeding?

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 20:57

I'll take the "trial and error" answer if you can tell me what to try first and then how to know if I need to adjust it and to what?

metalelephant · 07/06/2012 20:59

You genuinely expect me to tell you how much milk to put in a bottle? Have you asked your Health Visitor?

What I can tell you is that, apart from any "official" advice, breastfeeding is very much an instinctive process that's different for any mum and baby. So to expect me to reply to you in ml makes me think that you're either genuinely stressed or are pressuring me for an answer to make a point. If its the first case, please talk to your HV or call one of the breastfeeding lines. If its the second then it would make me sad because I have tried to be helpful.

hazchem · 07/06/2012 21:00

Monkey but is a roadshow going to answer your question? It wont be staffed by infant feeding specialists or pediatric doctors or pediatric dietitians.

It's rubbish that you haven't been able to access the information you need from your health care professionals.

I still think the roadshows, marketing, present giving, club membership ect are not altruistic practices of the big companies but marketing to make more money. Surely cheaper formula is better for everyone.

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 21:03

you haven't been helpful for future reference, you linked a site which MENTIONS mix feeding with no practical advice, so maybe if you don't have any practical advice, and can't find any, don't tell me there's loads of advice out there! (where? show me?)

mummmsy · 07/06/2012 21:03

Pastabee em...for many people formula feeding is normal

and not through false consciousness either

metalelephant · 07/06/2012 21:07

Monkeymoma, you sound pissed off. I'm not but I do now regret spending time writing what I thought would be helpful if you're just throwing it back at my face.

Goodnight.

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 21:09

or an even easier question, which BFs is it best to KEEP? and which to drop? morning? evening? middle of the day? night?

imagine a woman on day one of mix feeding with the bottles sterilised and ready and the cartons bought.. where to start?

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 21:11

x-post, I'll take that as a No metal, that you can't find a single practical tip for mix feeding even though you told me I should be able to find them easily

TruthSweet · 07/06/2012 21:11

Okay I'll bite - for a baby who is not ill/prem/younger than 6 weeks any 1st infant formula (the kind that isn't hungry baby and is suitable from birth) made up with >70C water and cooled to drinking temp OR ready to feed carton.

Offer 2oz and feed using paced feeding method of bottle feeding - chose a feed when baby isn't tired or stressed (just had jabs/ill/been poked in the eye by a sibling/etc) and then try to keep to offering the bottle feed at a similar time for 3 days to a week before introducing another one and so on until you reach the balance you want.

If baby wants more than 2oz (and you are doing paced bottle feeding) then at the next bottle feed offer 3oz and so on.

Is that what you were looking for?

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 21:12

yes truth that is exactly the kind of stuff I'm talking about, where do you find it? thanks

TruthSweet · 07/06/2012 21:15

I'm a bfing peer supporter and a student bfing counsellor - it's just in my head from the training and from experience with helping mothers find a balance of bfing & ffing.

monkeymoma · 07/06/2012 21:20

truth if someone had offered me that when I wanted to cut down on BFing I would have done that rather than tried to do a straight cold turkey switch to exclusive FF (not that it worked well Sad). I know others that would have too.

In my defence it wasn't just me out of my new mum friends who couldn't find that kind of advice, and we did try our HV, BFing groups, asking online... and mostly got told off and lecuted about supply (well it might affect supply but errr, DUR! not as much as a full switch to FF! which is what we tried in the absence of any mx feeding advice)

it is NOT easily accessed, there should be tonnes of easy to find info about BFing, FFing and mixed feeding, but theres not so I'm not in favour of shutting any channel of info even if it is with an agenda!

wasabipeanut · 07/06/2012 22:05

Ok, deep breaths. I'm probably going to get a flaming but here goes. All those claiming a lack of information about ff and mix feeding - I don't understand what you need that isn't already there. I mix fed DS. He was 100 % bf until about 3 months but was so unsettled in early evening and night I started with a bottle of formula. I looked at the back of the carton and offered that amount. Sometimes he drained it, sometimes he didn't. A few weeks later I substituted a bottle for breast at late morning/lunchtime. Again, read the carton. I continued this way with a 60/40 split until around 7 months when weaning meant we started to cut back on milk feeds a bit.

Worked for me pretty well and IMO, allowed me to continue bfing for longer.

The point is, I worked it out and it didn't seem that difficult. I didn't need to consult a HCP or a leaflet on how to mix feed. I just used trial and error and the info on formula tins. Babies are quite capable of telling you they are still hungry or had enough. Why the need for a millilitre specific guide? When bfing we don't know how much they're getting - we use signals from the baby to decide. Why can't we use the same process with formula and mix feeding?

metalelephant · 07/06/2012 22:22

wasabi, I personally think that it's the result of old fashioned strict guidelines - feed your baby every three hours, x amount of formula or x number of minutes on the breast, strict routines etc. All that can take the confidence away from mums I think.

Spiritedwolf · 07/06/2012 22:58

The road shows aren't the half of it. Did you see the letter mentioned on that page and linked to? here

Its these kinds of tactics of getting women to doubt themselves that are so underhand. "How's the feeding going? If you?re breastfeeding, do you sometimes wonder if your baby is getting enough milk?" surrounded by the SMA formula logo and a picture of the infant pack.

Breastmilk Substitute manufacturers want to advertise because it increases the market for their product. That is also why they run baby clubs, have give aways, have 'feeding support' lines and run roadshows. They want more money and their main competition is a superior, free product. But if they can get women to believe that breastfeeding is just a bonus, or that its so difficult and frustrating then they cause women to doubt the importance of breastmilk and their ability to produce it. The advertising of 'follow on' milks gives women the impression that they should move on from breastfeeding at 6 months/a year.

I do agree that for women who are unable to breastfeed or who choose not to do so, there should be unbiased advice on the composition of different formulas and the safest way to prepare them and how to mix feed. But allowing advertising of infant breastmilk substitutes will not provide that unbiased information, neither will roadshows.

The difficulty with expecting the nhs to be the unbiased experts on formula feeding (and they do give advice on preparation as people have linked to but that has been ignored in the search for detailed information on mix feeding) is that it these are commercial products and they refer to the manufacturer's instructions. Manufacturers don't have detailed information on mix feeding partly because they don't want women to do it successfully and partly because it is difficult to give detailed advice about mix feeding - as has been mentioned above, they cannot guarantee that it won't cause an end to breastfeeding, so they can't say 'feed this much and you will still be able to do both' because women accepting that might rightly be annoyed if they then lost the ability to breastfeed (as they wanted to do both).

If you want to understand more about substitute milks and how they are marketed, and why breastfeeding advocates wish to prevent the advertising of milks, I highly recommend 'The Politics of Breastfeeding - Why Breasts are Bad for Business'.

Its interesting that the experience of some women appears to be that they get no support to FF/mix feed, whilst others find they are advised to formula feed wholely or partly at the smallest problem often for very contradictory reasons (your baby isn't putting on enough weight, use formula. Your baby is putting on too much weight, use formula).

I think there is an argument for a non-commercial, evidence based, health focused, unadvertised and free milk substitute for women unable or unwilling to exclusively breastfeed. But it might be difficult to find a way of doing that without undermining breastfeeding further. But at least companies wouldn't be profiteering out of a woman just because she couldn't lactate, and there would be no incentive to push it onto women who are temporarly finding breastfeeding difficult. It would be there if she needed it but breastfeeding support would still be the priority.

I'm rambling a bit because its a difficult issue that I'm not totally sure of the best solution to. But I don't think that the answer to making sure that parents can formula feed safely is to give the companies free reign to push their products. I get that people feel angry if they didn't get the information they felt they needed to mix feed successfully but I don't think that recieving 'advice' from a biased party that wants to sell formula and therefore would benefit from women giving up BF is how they will get the information they need.

TruthSweet · 07/06/2012 23:13

SpiritedWolf - you have really hit the nail on the head, brilliant post Smile

metalelephant · 07/06/2012 23:21

yes, very well said SpiritedWolf.

Pastabee · 07/06/2012 23:28

But mummmsy doesn't that just support the point I was referring to? Somewhere along the line FF has become normal but it isn't the biological norm for mammals.

Allowing women a choice and a reasonable alternative to breastfeeding is fine but IMO formula should not be promoted as the standard way to feed a baby.

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