Naughty SMA

[showtunesgirl]

info.babymilkaction.org/wyethroadshow

Purplepidjin, it's not the same as condoms, haemerrhoid cream and other consumer products.

It is the sole source of nutrition for about a third of UK babies from a very young age, and a major source of nutrition for about half of them from a bit older.

These 'consumers' and their parents deserve a bit of protection from the free market - the contents and manufacture of formula milk are regulated nationally and internationally, so the concept of protection is already accepted. Next step is to extend this to the marketing.

I had no idea you could breast feed for longer than 6 months. There are so many ads on telly about when you move on from bf at 6 months, there is follow on milk to be had. It wasn't until I started looking around MN that I see of course it is possible to still provide the milk requirements for your child. It's almost like setting the stage to say bf is socially acceptable up to 6 months, but if you go beyond that, it's a bit weird. Subliminal messages!

It's a product, they're advertising it. Does anyone really think that mothers who are successfully breastfeeding or committed to doing so will robotically go and buy formula as a result?

If the breast is best message is so easily undermined that a stand in a few shopping centers can destroy endless public health messaging then we really are in trouble...

And as for 'normalizing' formula, well, unfortunately it is pretty normal in the UK. A quarter of babies are FF from the first day they're born and two-thirds of all babies get some formula or are fully FF within six months (as only about one-third of mothers are EBF until 6 months). Acting like formula is the Satan's piss in carton form is just silly.

NapaCab, it's nothing to do with thinking that mothers will act as robots and buy formula - you don't have to be a 'robot' to be influenced by marketing. It is there and we are all influenced by it. Mothers who are committed to bf, those who are bf successfully, may be less influenced (though see the post about not even realising bf could continue past 6 mths, which is actually a common notion - see boards on mumsnet every day for discussions about this sort of thing). But what about the mothers who are not having a good experience bf, what about mothers who are wobbling about using formula - why would you not prefer them to be able to access independent information about the range of options and products, without being marketed to? And maybe extra help and support with breastfeeding to help them have a better experience, if this is what they want?

We are not talking about a few stands in shopping centres. These roadshows are part of a whole strategy which includes adverts on tv and other media, 'free' tat, sponsorship and so on. It's expensive, pervasive, and mothers who use formula are paying for it.

Formula should be marketed ethically, and sold at a consistent low price - much lower than it is currently sold at. Why would you object to that?

Why are these arguments acting as if formula is 'Satan's piss'?????

but there ISN'T independant info about formula, HCPs DON'T help when you want to stop BFing, I would have found it very useful if I had at some point had a demo of how to make it up safely on the go etc, Being informed about the alternative doesn't make anyone want to quit, there's so much pressure to breast feed, its very much stick not carrot, and not giving info/demos about FF makes it feel even more stick than carrot so makes BFing all the more unpleasant

But how much info is here? Out of 13 leaflets 4 are on bottle feeding, 5 are on breastfeeding, 2 are on sleeping/SIDS/nighttime parenting, 1 is on starting solids and 1 is on the BFI its self.

If a hospital is Baby Friendly (i.e. they are trying not to scupper women who want to bf from bfing while not making anyone bf if that's not what they want) then this guidance applies to all bottle feeding mothers/families. Nowhere does it say 'Don't tell mums about formula or if you have to refer to it at all look like you really don't want to and be as obfuscating as possible so they don't understand anything you have said and come away even more confused than they started'.

If your HCP aren't following these guidelines or are being obstructive then your problem is with the HCP being crap not with bfing 'promotion'.

Sorry monkeymoma, there's plenty of info on the actual tin, there's a wealth of info online and lots of us were raised on formula and have plenty if family members pretty much holding a bottle ready to feed that baby from the word go!

If anything, we're confused by formula feeding in expecting babies to feed every 3 hours, to sleep through straight away, to bond through dad giving a bottle etc. like another poster said, even for those that do manage to breastfeed successfully, 6 months is the time for follow on milk apparently!

There's a reason why advertising has rules and guidelines, it's there to convince rather than educate. If anything, formula companies do not point out the danger of preparing formula with water that's hot enough to destroy possibly deadly bacteria.

Why won't formula companies share this info? Maybe because it would discourage consumers?

What about the role that these same companies have played in the developing world, selling powdered milk to communities without access to clean water, resulting to dysentery amongst babies?

Not so long ago, doctors were routinely advising mothers to formula feed and used stationary with the company's name on it.

Advertising is promotion, not education.

I don't see how adults who had formula as a baby are a source of info, same for relatives who FF at some point as the guidelines change and it can be hard to filter out the up to date correct stuff. Peers told me that they made up 24 hours worth of bottles and put them in the fridge, other peers used cold boiled water etc....

I don't see the problem. I BF, but I am not against FF. If parents decide to FF, it is better to get information on it. At the moment if you have any questions on FF, all you seem to get is condemnation. Especially from MWs and on internet forums. It's just sad that there isn't any independent advice on FF.

there is no info on the containers about mix feeding BTW, the containers only tell you how much to give an exclusive FF baby, NOONE would tell me how to mix feed, and I know quite a few mums that considered mix feeding (which would have given the child a bit more BM for a little longer at least) and becaus NOONE WILL TELL YOU HOW it was easier to quit BF cold turkey and exclusive FF

Thanks OP. Have shared on FB .

The NHS has good info:

www.nhs.uk/Conditions/pregnancy-and-baby/Pages/bottle-feeding-advice.aspx

I'm not anti-formula, I'm weary of the companies selling it!

For what it's worth, I couldn't breastfeed my first child so I'm the last person on earth to berate anybody for formula feeding.

I think the difficulty with advice on mixed feeding is that there is no two mothers and babies alike, and certainly no two pairs of breasts alike either!

Some mothers can mix feed without affecting their supply, but many find that their supply is affected. In my family in Greece, where most mums start mix feeding straight away, everybody said that they didn't have enough milk and it run out early on. I don't doubt they didn't have enough milk as supplementing is known to mess your supply. It's the rule of supply and demand...

Nhs formula feeding advice

"Some mothers can mix feed without affecting their supply, but many find that their supply is affected"

so what? once someone decides they would like to mix feed it means that exclusive BFing is not for them
therefore the choice is mix feeding or exclusive FF
NOT exclusive BF, mix feeding or exclusive FF

mix feeding would prolongue the child getting SOME BFing even if it was only for a couple of weeks, so what if supply tails off and after maybe 3 weeks of mix feeding they switch to just FF, that was 3 weeks that would have otherwise been exclusive FF!

I don't know a single person who was considering continuing to exclusively BFing who considered mix feeding - why would they? the only people who consider mix feeding are ones where the choice is mix feeding or exclusive FF!

I don't understand monkeymoma. You said there's no advice on mix feeding, then you agree that it may affect supply, so what is your point? That it's a good transition to exclusive formula feeding?

Like I said, some mothers can do it, some cannot. Personally I found it complicated, dealing with breastfeeding, expressing and formula feeding all at the same time. And so, once my daughter was able to, I chose to exclusively breastfeed. She is almost 8 months old and it's now really easy and lovely. How are things for you? I hope it's all good as well.

That's a genuine question by the way!

I don't understand what you don't understand?
there IS a lack of info about mix feeding, how much do you give in bottles if you are doing say 3 BFs??
why is affecting supply a reason not to mix feed when the alternative is exclusive ffing, at least some prolongued BF is given even if it tails off! that's still more BFing than if (as usually happens due to lack of support for mix feeding) you go straight from exclusive Bf to exclusive FF

I learned about mix feeding by talking to a lactation consultant at the hospital. The midwifes I talked to also gave me advice. There's a lot online. Like I said, there can't be a definitive guide because our bodies know how to produce milk according to supply and demand. You need to spend those hours of breastfeeding in the demanding first few weeks so your breasts get the right message.

There's info on mix feeding on the Nhs website here

Not nhs, bbc website

Metal elephant its just MENTIONED in that link, no info

so if there is info about it then say I have a 2 month old in the 50th percentile and want to drop ever other BF, and BF every 3 hours during the day and every 5 hours at night, how much do I put in the bottles?, how many bottles do I give in 24 hours?

Are you asking me? Is that your baby?

From what I know, there's no way to be sure your baby would agree with being fed every three or five hours, whether on breast or formula. Formula feeding is now also recommended to be on demand rather than in a strict schedule. the best way to find out any of your questions is to try them out I guess, though in my experience strict timetables and breastfeeding don't mix well, and that's one of the reasons mothers find they can't breastfeed for long.

I don't think infant feeding works like that MM - you can't specify to that degree how you will feed a baby regardless of what/how you feed them unless you are happy to put up with a lot of crying/fussing!

Also, what one woman does that may result in a similar pattern may completely not be right for you/your baby. It may not even work with the same woman from one baby to the next one. That's why in general the advice is feed on demand (whatever/however you feed) so that baby is given a chance to consume all they need and get the comfort that they need (though with bfing a baby may indicate they need to nurse and it be for non-hunger reasons).

This is why guidelines on mix-feeding don't really exist because you can't say 'every other feed offer a bottle' because it may not be a 'feed' baby wants but a 'be close to mum' or a 'warm me up and help me to release painkillers' so baby may not actually consume much milk but may spend a long time nursing. To offer a bottle then would be futile and it wouldn't be what the baby wanted (the bottlefeeding alternative would be a skin to skin cuddle and a dummy).

Does that make sense?

Don't see a problem, tbh.
I actually think its nice not to see bf shoved down our throats for a change.
I tried bf with 3 out of my 4 dcs, didn't work for me, was extremely painful and time consuming and i found ff just as good if not better.
Some of us haven't got the nipples for it, that includes me and im not ashamed to admit it.
They need to advertise, shame about the prices being so high though, from £5:25 in 2003 with pfb up to £7.99!! Ridiculous & not on-some of us cant bf and we pay through the nose just to feed our babies