Is Breast Best?

[ADaddy]

First of all I want to say that my heart goes out to all the women out there that are struggling trying to breastfeed their child and feeling the pressure to continue.

My wife gave birth nearly 3 weeks ago and since then has had a really rough time with breastfeeding. I just wanted to share some words with women in a similar situation. I'll put them in points to be more concise.

1. There is so much more to being a mother than just being a milk supply. Don't ever forget this!

1. This is about feeding your baby. It is too bad that they don't have "Feeding councillors" rather than just "Breastfeeding councillors".

1. Your baby's nutrition and hydration is vital. Don't feel guilty for making sure your baby has both of these.

1. The well-being of the mother is also vital. You need to be there for your baby, does your experience with breastfeeding enhance your well-being or make you feel like the contents of your babies nappies?

1. Unless there is imminent danger, Healthcare professionals will put breastfeeding above things such as sleep, washing, bonding, jaundice. It pains them to say the word "formula" so don't expect them too.

1. Healthcare professionals are mainly interested in the colour of poo, if wee is coming out and if the baby is at least gaining some weight. In that case all is well, forget the rest. This is NOT a holistic approach and one of my main bug-bears with breastfeeding promotion. There is a much bigger, far more complicated picture to consider to determine if breastfeeding really is working for you.

1. If you have a latch problem then they like that, they can help solve that. It's different when it is a supply problem, that is not always solvable and they tend to be in denial about it (mainly because it is far more difficult to solve).

1. Demand feeding:

a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed?  Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding :)
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane?  Maybe it is!

1. Is the difficulty of breastfeeding affecting your bond with your baby? It is hard enough, healing, hormones, baby blues and worse, don't be pressurised into sacrificing this important step under some misguided notion that your baby will suffer by not being breastfed. He/She is likely to suffer more if you are not able to nuture this all important bond.

Of course, these questions and statements come from our personal experiences, although from what I have read on the internet, we are not alone.

If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.

And before you ask, the only vested interest I have is in the health of my wife and baby and doing what is best for them.

Comments welcome.

I did not mean to patronise you or be rude to you, zliya (though I am pretty sure you intended to be rude to me!). It's hard to correct people without giving offence - particularly when it's clear they were trying to help, as you were.

But it is important on a public talkboard that people like me and others can do something to correct myths and misunderstandings - it is fair enough to share experience but don't use experience as a guide to what other people should do.

Would you want people to say nothing, and just let the myths and misunderstandings stay out there, gathering strength and credibility?

Tiktok is a trained (and very knowledagble and sensitive) breastfeeding counsellor. She is qualified to give up-to-date and accurate information and support regarding breastfeeding. She has more training in breastfeeding than the overwhelming majority of HVs, MWs, GPs and paediatricians AND most other posters on this board.

As valuable as your own experience is to you personally, anecdotes are not scientific studies, and cannot be used to generalise or inform.

I have reported your last post as a personal attack.

And zliya - whatever else expressing did for you, it absolutely did not tell you what was there or give you any indication of quality.

You might be ok about deluding yourself, but don't delude others

Tiktok may be all of that and more, but it doesn't give her the right to belittle others advise just like that on the whim, I breastfed two of mine and have mother who breastfed four of us, beside, pardon me for thinking we are all here to try and help with relevant advise and if so from personal experience.

Ack - don;t report her post!

If I can't manage to cope with being called a TOTAL TWAT, I shouldn't be here :)

Zliya, I did not belittle you, and it wasn;t on a whim.

(me too, TheRealMBJ)

I am a volunteer at a Peer Supporter breastfeeding support group, and in our training, we were specifically taught, as Tiktok says,

"it is fair enough to share experience but don't use experience as a guide to what other people should do."

I hope the OP comes back to update us on how his wife is getting on.

You are very sweet and forgiving Tiktok . Some of us (me) just feel defensive of you as you helped us so much in the early days and can't bear to see you attacked.

I'd like to know - when someone repeatedly gives out poor information based on their own limited experience only, then what is the polite way of correcting them, so it can be done without sounding like a TOTAL TWAT?

Sorry - zlaya.

I am going to bed, so you can continue to educate the nation on breastfeeding issues. Poor information was not given, not intentionally anyway, as I said it worked for me, but hey what do I know I am just mum!!!

I know I joined this discussion quite late, and it does seem to have been a bit hijacked, but I have noticed Zlaya is giving her advice on a number of the threads this evening.

I would agree that there is a lot of misinformation out there, and it is important that the most up to date information is given so that people can make informed choices. It might be the case that Zlaya's children are older, or that she is from another country where advice is different? I am just speculating here.

Turning back to the OP, when I had my DD, my DH commented to me that he felt so much pressure was on us (well me I suppose) to continue to BF. We had many reasons between us that we wanted to BF (and we are waiting for the OP to come back and tell us what his wife's actual opinion on it is, whether she wants to continue). The most useful and interesting information sheet I was shown was the Reasons to be Proud one that I linked to earlier. I was so proud of every day, and when I went "off the end" and BF for over 2 years, especially given the awful start we had.

adaddy please come back and tell us what the actuall day to day issues that your wife is dealing with are. Please give up a description of your wife's feeding experience. Please also tell us how she would like to go on.

If she would like to get back/to ebf it is quite likely this is possible.

If she would like to mixed feed there are ways of doing this of doing this that maintain an ongoing supply.

If she wishes to ff there are ways of stopping bf that minimise the risk of hormone crash, engorgement and infection. And please make sure you understand the guidelines on making up ff.

There are people on these boards that can help your wife through all of these. If you support her to access that information.

90% of women who stop bf befor six weeks wish they could have continued. Don't let your wife be one of them. Let her stop on her own terms.

adaddy you seem to want mumsnet to tell you it's ok to bottlefeed, I don't understand why you need this particular site blessing to bottlefeed. I actually don't think you are being very supportive as you seem to be looking for excuses for your wife to give up are you the one who doesn't like the fact your wife can't have make-up on and dinner on the table when you get home in the evening anymore?

ADaddy, whatever you decide good luck with it, moonfacemamaaagh you say 90% of woman stop bf before six month, maybe is all this good advice poor woman get regarding bf from breastfeeding gurus. Most natural thing in the world, made into nuclear fission bybreastfeeding gurus.

Breastfeeding peer-supporters and counsellors do not give advice, they supply information and give support to allow a mother to make her own well informed decisions.

Actually, breastfeeding itself is pretty simple and natural, but cultural expectations can sometimes make it more difficult than it needs to be.....zlaya, the answer is surely not to complicate matters with advice (which you have liberally shared) to eat more, eat better, rest more and drink more, to express to see what amount and quality you're producing, and to focus on stress. None of this is likely to help breastfeeding difficulties, and it makes life harder for people who try to follow this advice and still find nothing is better :(

I acknowledged you were genuinely trying to help - but genuine help comes from people who know where personal experience as a 'model' for others ends.

Don't derail the thread with your outrage and disgruntlement - we're still hoping the OP will return and share more details.

No zlaya, that's not what i said. To clarify, infant feeding surveys have found that of women who stop bf by six weeks , 90% wish they could have continued for longer.

Working from the statistic that up to 3% had a physiological problem, that leaves an awfull lot that could have bfed with proper support from someone like a bfc. I fear the op's wife could become one of these.

what a sad thread. I wish the OP's would come and tell us what's going on. Does she know about this thread ADaddy?

OP's wife sorry

I agree, I think the OP's wife should start a new post sharing her experience so some of the wise people on here could see if they can help at all.

Hi all

Since there was such a huge flurry of posts on this subject, I thought I would take the time overnight to read through them. I would like to address a few of the points raised.

It seems that some post's are suggesting that I am leading or have led my wife's decision on breast feeding. Nothing could be further from the truth. We are working together on this and discussing the subject, I described my wife's experiences and conveyed her sentiments.

And no, I am not looking for comfort from Mumsnet users in any decisions we have made or will make. My original post does not suggest the decisions we have made, again, it is about my wife?s experiences and based on this why any mother has a right to ask ?Is breast best?? without any negative thoughts at all.

And no, I am not bashing breastfeeding with ?typical bf behaviour?. These are my wife?s experiences and I am communicating them, if they are the typical, then so be it.

As for support groups, NCT, midwife, breastfeeding councillor, breastfeeding support groups, help lines, yes we have tried them. Unfortunately, as was amplified by these posts, the advice is always very very similar. And my wife has listened and tried it... and tried it ... and tried it and on and on. Still the results are always the same, exhausted mother, screaming hungry baby.

Someone told me a very wise thing once, "If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got". We were getting nowhere so we took a step back from the situation and asked the question "Is breast best?".

Interesting statements about breastfeeding in areas of famine/starvation. Anyone tied this up with infant mortality rates in these regions? Are the studies even able to gather and include information with respect to these poor little souls? Seriously tiktok ?mum not eating enough = no effect on milk supply?! Is this really completely true, how far does this theory hold, ?mum is dead = some effect on milk supply??

Further, on the subject of supply, for those of you that think supply does not vary from woman to woman, I would love to see how this natural phenomenon bucks the trend of all nature. Do not be confused by the statistical mean, there is always a distribution of results. The exact statistic in question can be debated, intake, supply, storage, I'm not sure which is the best, however, from a practical sense, the statistic that measures a woman?s ability to satisfy her baby's hunger within a defined schedule may be better, or perhaps we can establish supply issues and hence breastfeeding issues by identifying a statistic that looks at breast milk production during a defined feed.

An analogy to the current approach some posts are suggesting is like saying the total height of everyone in the world is the same (i.e. the total intake/supply is the same). That says nothing to individual heights and the variation therein.

Bottom line, there is more variation and as a consequence difficulty with breastfeeding than you are recognising.

cloudydays eloquently expressed an excellent point;

"And if she ventures on to websites and chat rooms about infant feeding, she'll find people to tell her that she didn't try hard enough, care enough, understand enough, and that if she really did have a supply problem, she is an incredibly rare medical specimen indeed. That may help her to feel that she's either a failure, or she's very alone and freakish unusual in her experience. Just what every new mother needs"

Precisely and thank you cloudydays.

I read reports such as

"Every year more than 200,000 mothers stop breastfeeding in the first few days and weeks" - Rosie Dodds, senior policy adviser for the NCT.

This is a large amount of women who face possible alienation and all the difficult feelings that go with stopping breastfeeding due to the emphasis on breastfeeding rather than feeding. My post does not address this but I would hope that maybe one of those mothers reading it stops for a second, thinks and realises that actually, the course she took was for the best.

I look forward to responses on this thread, each one helps me understand the spectrum of opinions on this subject and so help my wife navigate the range of reactions she will receive

Only read OP, but you sound like a woman to me.

I am pro bfing, but obviously women have the choice of how to feed their babies, however, if it weren't for bfing, Human beings would not exist; we would have died out a very long time ago.

Why are you still acting as your wife's mouth piece? It would be great to hear her side of things in her own words.

Or doesn't she have any?