Is Breast Best?

[ADaddy]

First of all I want to say that my heart goes out to all the women out there that are struggling trying to breastfeed their child and feeling the pressure to continue.

My wife gave birth nearly 3 weeks ago and since then has had a really rough time with breastfeeding. I just wanted to share some words with women in a similar situation. I'll put them in points to be more concise.

1. There is so much more to being a mother than just being a milk supply. Don't ever forget this!

1. This is about feeding your baby. It is too bad that they don't have "Feeding councillors" rather than just "Breastfeeding councillors".

1. Your baby's nutrition and hydration is vital. Don't feel guilty for making sure your baby has both of these.

1. The well-being of the mother is also vital. You need to be there for your baby, does your experience with breastfeeding enhance your well-being or make you feel like the contents of your babies nappies?

1. Unless there is imminent danger, Healthcare professionals will put breastfeeding above things such as sleep, washing, bonding, jaundice. It pains them to say the word "formula" so don't expect them too.

1. Healthcare professionals are mainly interested in the colour of poo, if wee is coming out and if the baby is at least gaining some weight. In that case all is well, forget the rest. This is NOT a holistic approach and one of my main bug-bears with breastfeeding promotion. There is a much bigger, far more complicated picture to consider to determine if breastfeeding really is working for you.

1. If you have a latch problem then they like that, they can help solve that. It's different when it is a supply problem, that is not always solvable and they tend to be in denial about it (mainly because it is far more difficult to solve).

1. Demand feeding:

a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed?  Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding :)
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane?  Maybe it is!

1. Is the difficulty of breastfeeding affecting your bond with your baby? It is hard enough, healing, hormones, baby blues and worse, don't be pressurised into sacrificing this important step under some misguided notion that your baby will suffer by not being breastfed. He/She is likely to suffer more if you are not able to nuture this all important bond.

Of course, these questions and statements come from our personal experiences, although from what I have read on the internet, we are not alone.

If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.

And before you ask, the only vested interest I have is in the health of my wife and baby and doing what is best for them.

Comments welcome.

'I'm not suggesting that the human genome is transformed to a non-breast feeding capable genome. What I am suggesting is that it may no longer form a strong basis for natural selection (this is somewhat of a tangent).'

Thankfully for humans not breastfeeding doesn't result in the death of the infant like it frequently does for horses, sheep, cows, etc, etc.

That isn't as a result of humans having formula, it is as a result of the fewer layers within the placenta allowing maternal anti-bodies to be passed to the baby. Humans (primates and rodents too) have 3 layers to their placentas not the many more that other animal have see here for more info on the differences.

Humans are more vulnerable when they are born than most other animals (not capable of independent motion/feeding themselves) yet we are so resilient from a nutritional point (not having colostrum isn't make or break). However, the results are yet to be in from the 'Great Formula Experiment' of the 20th & 21st Centuries so we don't know fully what the long term implications of not having bm are (we know some of them but not possibly all).

FWIW my DDs have taken part in the 'experiment' too so I'm not speaking from a place of smugness at never having used formula. At times formula is absolutely necessary and at times it saves lives. At times, sadly, it is positively detrimental to the health of mother and child. It would be nice for parents if bm & fm were interchangeable and there posed no risks swapping between the two but it doesn't work like that.

ADaddy - 'breastfeeding difficulties' as far as we can can tell (bearing in mind written/pictorial evidence goes back no more than about 5000 years) leading to breastmilk substitutes were i) death of the mother and ii) social taboos on breastfeeding specific to minorities in some cultures - for example, the elite in Ancient Rome did not breastfeed their own children; some of the Ancient Greeks had a taboo on maternal bf; more recently, 17th-19th century aristocracy in England did not bf.

That's predominantly the reason for animal milks and wet nursing.

Not a widespread historical biological need for substitutes.

Anthropology today reveals pre-industrial cultures and groups who live life probably very close to how humans have lived for tens of 1000s of years. Breastfeeding difficulties ie inadequate supply are rare - not unknown, but rare.

To add: I don't know what you mean by breastfeeding difficulties not being as uncommon as we are led to believe....there is massive support for the idea that breastfeeding is difficult! Mothers switch to formula all the time - where is this idea that people don't think breastfeeding difficulties exist??!

Adaddy, read the "Breastfeeding in the land of Ghengis Khan" thread...

I have to say that many of my older relatives grew up in a very isolated place and probably never had access to formula, my dad was wetnursed in the 1930's for 4 years by a local woman as my gran had eclampsia and was very ill for a long time which supports your view that not every woman has the chance to feed their own child. Although since you have never described the exact issue your DW has had we don't know. The support I had to breastfeed from them was amazing I think because of the cultural norms they had of breastfeeding and it's sad that in our society we turn to formula rather than share breastmilk. I think the debate that you have tried to foster should be more about how women are best supported to breastfeed rather than assume that "breast isn't best" in some cases.

Adaddy i'm so that you still insist you are here for debate, not advice.

Of course mn is a place for debate. And this particular one has been done to death on here.

But it is also a place where people come to find and offer support. And that is what your wife needs now.

Not your theoretical assertions and staunch opinions.

You have limited knowledge and experience of bf but your op comes across as some sort of revelation to "put the record straight".

Are you hoping to convince your wife that bf should be unimportant to her, as it seems it is to you?

You made up your mind about bf this befor starting this thread and so reject any experience that doesn't confirm your prejudice.

And that is a lot of experiences, because bf is very important to many women, who go through a lot in an attempt to establish it.

There are plenty of topics debated intelligently and robustly on MN every day. It certainly wasn't clear that this was intended as a debate topic since it had someone struggling with BFing at the heart of it and, as another poster said, it is pretty much inevitable that people are going to respond with advice and support rather than debating the subject in a detached manner.

I don't really see "Is best breast?" as a particularly useful debate in any event. There are a lot of issues around breastfeeding to explore and discuss, but these tend to relate to cultural issues, support, medical issues, feelings about BFing, feelings about FFing etc, and a lot of these issues have a common theme at their heart - how to support women BFing and how to improve BFing rates.

There are, I would think, relatively few people who would attempt to argue that breast isn't best as an absolute stance. We all know that not 100% of women can breastfeed and we all know that a percentage of women who could potentially breastfeed will not succeed in doing so due to cultural/support issues. But there is sufficient evidence out there about the benefits of breastmilk that I would imagine that very few people would try to say "No, breast isn't best".

Breast may not be best or even possible in every case, but as a topic for debate, there really isn't much scope for argument on the general principals.

'This thread, however, was not about getting help, it was to promote discussion and awareness.'

gosh, he's just so terribly responsible isn't he! we never discuss ff/bf on here do we.

meanwhile in the midst of a lot of guff about guilt etc i'm learning loads from this thread- off to research this 'catchdown growth' right away.

Ah suntangirl that is the joy of mn isn't it? Someone somewhere always learns something...even if it's not the thread's op.

Hello ADaddy

I have been following this thread but first time posting. I'm still unclear as to what you are trying to achieve but I just wanted to add to the reply's about your comment regarding other people's experiences making your DW/Other women feel like failures.

I struggled with breastfeeding for 6-7 weeks for various reasons (even without nipple pain, mastitis, raynaurds syndrome, its just bloody hard work!) but i LOVED going to breastfeeding clinics and support groups and meeting mums with older babies who'd also had various problems because it was proof to me that things do get better! I would quiz them relentlessly - when did it stop hurting? when did it get quicker? when did they start feeding less? when did they start sleeping through the night? Although in the first few weeks their answers seemed like years away, they really helped me keep going. The groups also meant I got out of the house, spoke with other adults (I think DH got bored of me telling him in detail, every night, the contents of every single nappy and how many times ds had chucked up on me).

We are 13 weeks in now and breastfeeding is so easy (parenting not so much!) and like the mums I used to quiz, I still go to bf groups for the support and now to impart my wisdom to the newbies .

The breast feeding groups where I am are heaving with new and older babies because we all need support, for breastfeeding and parenting. I cannot recommend strongly enough that your DW gets out there and meets some other bf-ers and women going through the same thing. In ye olde days women were surrounded by family and friends who all breastfed but in todays times we have to go out and find that support.

Sorry for the long post, got a bit carried away there with my love of support groups :)

Good post pettyprudence :)

Hello,
Before I say anything - I don't really want to get into any debating. I'm a bit too shy for that but just wanted to say thankyou Adaddy for understanding.

Your OP made me cry (in a good way). I do feel supported knowing there are others out there with the same feelings. I know there are those who don't agree and that's their right. I don't expect everyone to think as I do. I just wanted to pass on my thanks.

It's been 2 years since my struggle with supply after being very poorly after my DD's birth but my feelings are still raw on this topic. I've never written about my emotions regarding this as I'm a bit scared someone will tell me off! I have to sign off now - a little voice from upstairs beckons! All the very best.

Hi Mostlytoasty

Thank you for your post.

It seems that my original post has come in for a lot of criticism and that is ok, they each have their own justification.

But thank you again for your post, I'm pleased that it helped you feel that you are not alone in your feelings, you are definitely not.

All the best with the little voice from upstairs.

Random thread is random.

Hi Adaddy

How is your wife getting on? I hope she has chosen a feeding method that workks for her/you/baby as a family. I hope your son is feeling better and hope your wifes boobs are feeling better as well. Is he over the jaundice and settling in with you all as a new family unit?

You have many moons of MN to look forward to and hopefully your wife will join as well and can offer her empathy and support to mothers that have had her experiences. I sincerely hope all is well in your household and your wife has made the right choices for her and has no regrets about them.

Good luck with your new family.
Charleymouse

Thank you Charleymouse for your very kind post.

We take it day by day and week by week and although we are still finding our way in our brand new world of newborn babies, things are starting to settle down, resembling organised chaos as opposed to out and out bedlam

Thanks again

It might be controversial, certainly on this website, but it is possible to follow a routine with a newborn and bf.
I found the book by Clare Byam-Cook and dvd really helpful, which is in favour of 'demand- feeding' but looks at it as 'baby-led -feeding'.....is there a difference?
YES !! a newborn is not hungry EVERY time they cry!! If you feed your baby until he is FULL (if need be removing clothes, tickling feet to keep him awake) burp him then offer other breast, you will know he has had enough to last 2-3 hours (assuming he has fed for a reasonable time). If you swaddle him, he will sleep better and be less-likely to startle himself awake. Make sure that he feeds at least every 3 hours during the daytime (don't let him sleep through his feed times) and then he will get plenty to eat, and if he does have a longer sleep period, it will happen at night.
I also found Dr Jack Newman's website helpful with attachment , breast compression and how to tell when he is actually 'drinking' as opposed to just sucking, all of which can help make sure the baby feeds well - remember if he doesn't receive mouthfuls of milk when he suckles, then the breast is effectively a dummy/pacifier and the baby will nod off before he is full - hence wanting to feed again an hour later.
My Son is now nearly 5 months and still BF, whereas I only managed 3 1/2 weeks with my daughter who is now 8, which I put down to all the support available, websites/ peer support groups and book / dvd.
Feeding is a personal choice and you must do what suits you as a family.

P.S. no-one now asks me how I fed my healthy, bright 8 year old!!!

i'm sorry vegas, but there is some really bad advice in your post. It,s not your fault, it,s clare byam cook's, she is notorious for talking crap about bf

An average newborn takes only 90mins to digest a full stomach of bm. So expecting them to go two or three hours between feeds means they will have an empty stomach for between thirty and ninety mins.

And how do you define a reasonable feed when you have no idea of the rate of transfer between mother mother and baby?

It's these kind of myths that cause unnecessary worry to many mothers.

One of the reasons supply problems are virtually unknown in some cultures is because infants have unlimited access to the breast and so continually stimulate supply.

Contrast this with our culture where the spectre of supply issues looms large, largely because previous generations had real issues caused by feeding to schedual.

As i say i'm not having a go at you, it's cbc! And jack newman is ace.

I can't go 3 hours without a drink... why should my baby???

I agree moonstorm - I rarely go an hour without eating or drinking so why would I make a wee one. This applies to ff or bf in my view. Can never get my head around a scheduled feeding routine at all!

Newborns are draining and worrying fullstop! If you don't stress about BFing you stress about something else. ADaddy I think you attribute too many generic newborn 'problems' to breastfeeding :)

Hope things are going well for your wife and baby.

Having tried very hard to breastfeed my first 3 DC and failed after a short period of time, which at the time I contributed to not enough milk, big/hungry babies and having to exclusively express leading to my milk drying up, I was determined to successfully breastfeed this baby.

My DH knows how determined I was to be able to breastfeed and continue with it as I do want what is best for my baby and the rest of my family and I believe that breast feeding is best. Before I gave birth I told him that things might be very difficult in the early days and I might end up tearful or want to give up, but it was very, very important to me that at no point he suggested formula would be easier or better or I should consider anything else but breastfeeding.

My baby is only 14 days old tomorrow, so it's very early days, but we've already had our fair share of problems, most of which despite my prior preparation, I hadn't expected, worst of all mastitis that made me feel more dreadful than I could have imagined and needed antibiotics. My DH has simply been on hand to hold me, to comfort me, to take baby when I needed to and she wouldn't be put down for even a second, to bring me food and drinks and to love us both. He too has shed tears when I have at the pain and sheer exhaustion I have suffered, but no matter what he may have been thinking, he has reminded himself of the reasons I wanted to breastfeed and has supported me completely. I feel extremely lucky to have him and this thread has made me appreciate him even more.

I really hope the OP's wife is able to get the support she needs, whatever her decisions are regarding feeding. Having been in similar situations myself, I know the right information and support is vital and whilst I never felt guilty about stopping breastfeeding previously, I feel sad that (it was years ago) I couldn't get the support I needed. Even websites like this can offer a huge amount of advice and support.

Adadddy loved your thread, I had a lot of problems breastfeeding, one problem I had was that whilst baby was on one breast the other breast leaked all the milk so there was none left for the baby, when I realised this I was able to buy cups that went on my breasts to catch the milk so I could put it in a bottle to feed the baby.

Saying that I still did have to top up my baby with formula partly because when she was five days I was really sick with an infection and on very strong antibiotics, this can affect how you much milk you supply and the quantity of it.

Even though I was constantly feeding baby and expressing my milk when I could I just was not producing enough for my child by three months old, it was obvious from the amount I was expressing that it was not enough milk for my baby.

Unless you have had problems I do not think others who have not will understand you, I had the the NCT councellor tell me I was wrong, well I think I know what my body was doing better than her.

I am currently 22 weeks pregnant and while I hope to breastfeed my baby, I know that I may have to top it up with formula.

Your wife needs to do what is best for her and your baby and she with your help is the best person to decide.

Adaddy, I've read the whole thread (the last few pages quite fast though, so apologies if this has already been said) -

I went through an 'angry at breastfeeding' stage when my DS was about 3/4 weeks old.

I hadn't been prepared for the reality of it. I had a frequently feeding baby, who was feeding on demand, and I was horribly, horribly tired (baby never went more than 2 hours between feeds at night, and mostly not that). I had rages about 'not being allowed' to make myself a cup of tea, have a shower, be able to leave the house, etc etc. All I did was breastfeed.

I decided to persist to 6 weeks, and thereafter it all got better. Not overnight, but fairly fast.

It was all a balancing act. On the one hand, I was very tired and emotional. On the other hand, I knew formula was an inferior form of nutrition, didn't give my baby the same immunological protection, and was likely to increase the likelihood of DS getting DP's athsma, exczema and other allergies. If I was feeling like 'all I did was breastfeed' at that point, then I had to recognise that that was all my newborn baby wanted and needed to do. Given that I was physically capable of BF-ing, even if I was finding it hard going, was it fair to ask him to pay the price for me stopping?

The answer for me was no.

If I genuinely felt I was heading for a nervous breakdown (and twice I had to think very hard about whether that was likely), I would have thought about whether giving myself a break with formula would work. But I was just very, very tired and overwhelmed. I clung to the idea that it would get better, and it did.

I'm not advocating a 'persist at all costs' approach to breastfeeding. I don't think I shared your wife's BF-ing problems. And I genuinely believe there are situations, social as well as medical, where using formula in some way is a good option.

But in answer to some of your questions -

No, lack of sleep isn't any good for anyone. It's shit. But it won't kill you. Babies, however they are fed, tend to mean you get less sleep one way or another.

Is no time to wash good? No, it's minging. But it won't kill you, it's not for long, and even I managed a wipe round with a flannel to stop me getting trenchfoot

Is not being able to find time to eat good? Your wife can find time to eat. Probably not cook a meal or eat at table, if that's what she's used to - but fruit, sandwiches, ready made salads are all healthy and easy. And people can help. A supportive partner can bring you food in a bowl, and a spoon to eat it with onehanded if you are BF-ing, like mine did. Living off snacks and ready made sandwiches for a few weeks won't kill you.

Is no routine, no structure a way for an adult to live? In the long run, no, of course not. But for the first few weeks of a baby's life, when they are so small and totally dependent on you, it won't kill you to organise your life around theirs, to give them what they need.

In all honesty, you do sound to me as though you are going through the 'angry at breastfeeding' stage, and also dealing with the shock of a new baby, and you really do have my sympathy there. It's a BIG shock to the system, and IMO, we are very unprepared for BF-ing. But this time passes.

And there's a VERY big difference between being in extremis and deciding that for all its downsides, formula can be a help for you, in the great balancing act - and wanting to believe that formula is just as good as BF-ing, and the benefits of BF are all a load of hoo-ey because it's a belief that would allow you to dismiss BF-ing.

I hope whatever happens things gets better for your wife and family.

Beautifully put fruitybread :)