Is Breast Best?

[ADaddy]

First of all I want to say that my heart goes out to all the women out there that are struggling trying to breastfeed their child and feeling the pressure to continue.

My wife gave birth nearly 3 weeks ago and since then has had a really rough time with breastfeeding. I just wanted to share some words with women in a similar situation. I'll put them in points to be more concise.

1. There is so much more to being a mother than just being a milk supply. Don't ever forget this!

1. This is about feeding your baby. It is too bad that they don't have "Feeding councillors" rather than just "Breastfeeding councillors".

1. Your baby's nutrition and hydration is vital. Don't feel guilty for making sure your baby has both of these.

1. The well-being of the mother is also vital. You need to be there for your baby, does your experience with breastfeeding enhance your well-being or make you feel like the contents of your babies nappies?

1. Unless there is imminent danger, Healthcare professionals will put breastfeeding above things such as sleep, washing, bonding, jaundice. It pains them to say the word "formula" so don't expect them too.

1. Healthcare professionals are mainly interested in the colour of poo, if wee is coming out and if the baby is at least gaining some weight. In that case all is well, forget the rest. This is NOT a holistic approach and one of my main bug-bears with breastfeeding promotion. There is a much bigger, far more complicated picture to consider to determine if breastfeeding really is working for you.

1. If you have a latch problem then they like that, they can help solve that. It's different when it is a supply problem, that is not always solvable and they tend to be in denial about it (mainly because it is far more difficult to solve).

1. Demand feeding:

a. Is lack or sleep good for mother or milk supply or to that end baby?
b. Is not being able to find time to eat good for anyone?
c. Is no time to wash good?
d. Does baby sleep a lot and forget to demand only to wake up ravenous and too fractious to feed?  Can't be possible, this does not fit in the ideal world of demand feeding :)
e. No routine, no structure, no way for an adult human to live?
f. Are you told, don't worry, keep going your milk supply will come through soon?
g. Feels like it is driving you insane?  Maybe it is!

1. Is the difficulty of breastfeeding affecting your bond with your baby? It is hard enough, healing, hormones, baby blues and worse, don't be pressurised into sacrificing this important step under some misguided notion that your baby will suffer by not being breastfed. He/She is likely to suffer more if you are not able to nuture this all important bond.

Of course, these questions and statements come from our personal experiences, although from what I have read on the internet, we are not alone.

If you read through my points and breastfeeding is still the right approach for you, great! If not, then do the best thing for you and the baby (yes, that is YOU too) and consider alternative approaches.

And before you ask, the only vested interest I have is in the health of my wife and baby and doing what is best for them.

Comments welcome.

prettybird - your difficulty was clearly that you were trying to get your newborn to read, and being impatient when he stayed 40 minutes on 'one book' - how many do you think he could have read in that time?

I'm sorry to go off at a tangent from the original thread, but I felt I wanted to comment on the weighing issue.
In the first 6-7 months or so I got my dd weighed every 3 weeks or so. I realise this was probably excessive, but I enjoyed the security of knowing that my dd was gaining weight and that feeding was going well. Once solids were introduced, I could gauge that they weren't being introduced too slowly or too quickly and chat this over with my HV. I do believe this was to the benefit of my dd, as I am a first time parent with no family nearby, and after all I was learning on the job.
I do sometimes wonder if it hadn't been for me initiating this regular contact with the HV team (who I have found to be brilliant by the way, maybe I have been lucky there), when my dd would have actually seen the HV? She came to my house at 6 weeks, but an assistant carried out 8 month check. When would she see her next? 2.5yrs?
Surely you can see that weigh ins aren't just about a baby's weight. This is also about contact with parents. Only last month I overheard a mum saying to HV 'oh I'm glad he's still gaining..... by the way he's not been himself in the last 24 hours and also there's this rash on his back....'. I do sometimes wonder about that baby. The rash could have turned out to be nothing, or maybe that baby's mum would have called the GP if she'd not been seeing the HV that day. Maybe not. Maybe this little boy was just lucky it was a Monday and he was due to be weighed that day.

Maybe that is why he enjoys reading now!

Blooming typos! 40 minutes on one boob not book

I do think you are misinterpreting my comments.

organiccarrotcake it is a difficult balance to find. That doesn't mean that advice is unwelcome, but also it doesn't mean that a person is just ungrateful if it is not. Perhaps there is an interpretation issue that needs to be considered.

Your comments are viewed by many readers, I really hope they are useful to them. That is why I started this thread, to open out the discussion.

As much as I was asked the question of what I want from this thread, I might similarly ask what people expect from the advice and experiences they share?

It doesn't mean I can't appreciate your comments, however, at the same time, that doesn't necessarily make them useful to us (my family). We are not a problem to solve. That is not an intended as an insult, although it seems to be taken that way.

What are people to do?

Post the comments just as they have been, with hopefully balanced views from each side.

I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread yet (it's massive), I'm sure someone's thought about tongue-tie though? A friend of a friend struggled for months with bf & baby's v slow weight gain before a tongue-tie was noticed. Also
Dr. Jack Newman knows everything about bf, great website, loads of advice, worth a try. Saved my sanity!
All the best...

There's not really a discussion, though, is there.

We all know that new babies are hard.
We all know that BFing can be difficult to start with (and for some time for some people).
We all know (and respect) that people make their own choices about this.
We know that emotionally it's really hard - which is what many of the threads on this forum discuss and support.

So there's not really much new to discuss.

So, therefore, the next step would be to see if people here can help. You don't want that, and that's fine of course.

Wishing you all the best :)

Next?

Glad we cleared that up organiccarrotcake

I have read all 13 pages and I have to say, OP, I am at a complete loss as to what you actually wanted out of this thread.

Breastfeeding is a pretty robust and natural process - if it wasn't then, as an earlier poster said, the human race would have died out a very long time ago. That is not to say that every mum/baby "team" will be able to establish a successful, sustainable breastfeeding relationship. There are many reasons why this process might be difficult/impossible.

Personally, I had all the support that I could possibly have been given and the end result was a gradually declining mix-feeding regime which ended with DS being fully FF at about 4 1/2 months. The general consensus was that I had an unfortunate combination of a low supply, an extremely slow let-down and a very, very impatient baby. The breastfeeding counsellor and the specialist midwife who we saw regularly were in agreement that if DS had been more persistent then the other problems might have responded to the on-demand feeding and pumping regime we had in place, and that if the let-down had been more normal then DS would probably have been willing to persist. Unfortunately we found ourself in difficulties and ended up on formula.

Based on my own experiences I could "blame" the mechanics of breastfeeding and complain that nature has come up with an imperfect process for feeding our babies. I don't do that because I am well aware that we fell into a relatively small minority and the vast majority of people are capable of establishing that long-term breastfeeding relationship. It might be difficult or painful and it might appear impossible at times, but for most people it is ultimately possible.

OP, it strikes me that you feel that breastfeeding has let you down and nature has in some way got it wrong. You don't seem to be taking on board the fact that a lot of the problems you are talking about are absolutely par for the course with a newborn baby. Newborns feed very regularly, almost constantly. They need to do this. It is normal and it is part and parcel of establishing their mother's supply and their own sense of wellbeing. No-one is going to give you any advice other than that you have already been given because, at a really basic level, there is no other advice to give. You have a young baby who is doing what comes naturally.

There may well be a supply issue. No-one on the internet can diagnose this. If there is a supply issue then you will be given the same advice over and over. It will either work or it won't. If it doesn't, then obviously your family needs to make whatever decision you feel is right for you. But even if it does work, you will still have a very young baby who will want to feed regularly and who will bring you both to complete exhaustion.

No-one here is realistically going to say to you "No, you are right. Breast isn't best and all the advice you have been given is rubbish". Do what you and your wife feel is best - you don't need everyone else to vindicate your reasons.

Both of my DDs were FF, but I DO believe breast is best.

Haven't read the thread but may I point out that ff does not magic all these problems away in many cases. I ended up ff dd as bf wasn't going well but she still fed on demand. She didn't want a structure or routine wherever her milk was coming from.
It also does not make babies sleep more in all cases!
So, some of the things you describe are just about coming to terms with feeding a totally dependent and new little life not solely to do with bf.

Yes, I agree with the last two posters.

3 posters!!!

I enjoyed reading your post kungfupanda and that fact that you have shared your experience. I might just pick you up on one point, regarding the demise of the human race. Our ability to substitute breast milk with formula may indeed have enabled genetic traits to propagate that in less advanced societies would have died out (or perhaps wet nurses would be more commonplace). Meaning that even if breastfeeding is perfect, not everyone who gives birth is able to breastfeed perfectly.

Your email is exactly what I was hoping to read on this thread. I'm not looking for blame or affirmation for the path we are taking, I am not sure why my posts are interpreted that way.

And pommedechocolat, yep, we still have plenty of newborn issues with our current approach, but definitely a few less.

ADaddy - on your last post to KungFu, you say that formula feeding may have lead to genetic traits being passed down from unsuccessful bfers that would have died out with out formula.

That is true but we have only had formula (that is mainly safe) for about 2 to 3 generations. Not long enough to completely change the human genome to make bfing a hopeless endeavor for the majority of mums. Lactation still works in the vast majority of cases but breastfeeding may cause problems with expectations from a formula feeding society so it may break down if mum tries to make her baby 'fit' a formula feeding model.

I'm not saying anything about you/your wife/baby with that last comment though it was a general comment on 'the babies should go 4 hours'/'sleep through the night from X weeks', 'not need feeding again' type of expectations that others may have of a baby/mother dyad that may cause problems in their nursing relationship.

I thought I made the point in my post that not everyone is able to BF? Like most natural processes, there will be situations where nature does not succeed. But that doesn't mean that we should throw the baby out with the bath water and decide that the process isn't worth persisting with. Most mammals are capable of giving birth to live young and surviving the process themselves- not all do. That does not mean that we should give up encouraging the attempt. Most mammals are capable of conceiving offspring - not all find it easy or possible. That does not mean that we should jump straight to fertility treatment without giving the natural process time to work first.

It is only in the most recent history of humans that we have had the capability to intervene in a dangerous birth situation, or correct infertility issues or artificially nourish a child. We have a safety net - that doesn't mean that everyone should be encouraged to jump into it on the basis that the natural process is a bit pants really.

On a population level, breast is best. There really aren't any population-level arguments against this assertion that hold any water whatsoever.

At an individual, case-by-case level, there will be mothers and babies for whom breast is definitely not best for a variety of reasons. None of these individual cases affects the wider argument one little bit. This is the problem I have with your stance, OP. You seem to be trying to take your family's personal experience and produce some overreaching principal about the whole concept of breastfeeding.

A hundred people could post on this thread about their unsuccessful attempts to breastfeed and it would not alter the fact that, overall, breast is best. A thousand people posting such stories wouldn't alter it.

And I agree with Truthsweet. We haven't been a formula-reliant society for long enough for genetic issues relating to BFing to become apparent. What we have lost is generations of knowledge, experience and cultural acceptance of BFing.

Well said kungfu

Adaddy that just about reflects our experience, more support and practical help would have been useful but ending up in hospital with a 3 day old dehydrated baby due to breastfeeding (or lack of) is not to be recommended.

Its too long ago to get het up over now, except that the baby moon was somewhat interrupted. Fwiw i'm sure my grandparents and great grandparents relied on cows milk at a very early age. Hey ho we are all immune to tb.

Hi TruthSweet

I'm not suggesting that the human genome is transformed to a non-breast feeding capable genome. What I am suggesting is that it may no longer form a strong basis for natural selection (this is somewhat of a tangent).

So in our modern world we support mothers and babies regardless of their breastfeeding capability. Does this change the assumption that it is rare that there are supply issues?

kungfupannda what do you mean by "on a population level"? Do you mean, the majority of people? Again, this starts to bring us into the statistical world where the definition becomes more rigorous.

My stance is exactly what you suggest, that there are mothers, on the continuous scale of capability for whom breast is not best. Caution needs to be taken not to consider them within the main bulk of mothers for whom breastfeeding is not a problem.

My point is to consider the individual, not define an overriding principle.

I do not advocate either method of feeding.

Thank you for your post boysrock.

Just typed long post and lost it.
General gist:

OP - you are massively over-complicating. We have taken 13 pages to say "Breast is best if you can do it. If you can't, that is fine".

Most people are capable of breastfeeding. Not everyone is.

Benefits will only be visible on a population level, not (usually) in any individual.

Thread is confusing - it sets up generalisations and yet you assert that you are concerned with the individual.

ADaddy - you mean as more women use formula, the breastfeeding-capability feature of women will become less common?

I don't think so.

Breastfeeding is still overwhelmingly the most usual way to feed babies - there have been alternatives to breastfeeding used, by a small minority of women, for thousands of years (because of cultural ideas about bf) and from what we can tell, animal milks have been used alongside human milk for thousands of years too. If non-breastfeeding was to affect the number of women who are 'breastfeeding capable' we'd have to have widespread non-breastfeeding for 1000s of generations.

I now see what you are trying to ascertain - whether some women are simply unable to make enough milk for their babies. I and others have explained many times that milk supply is variable - but for most mothers and babies, this does not matter. A mother who makes a smaller amount of milk at any one time will simply feed more often.

Supply/intake issues do exist - they are often caused by cultural assumptions of what bf should be 'like'. Other causes are birth events, separation of mother and baby, deliberate limitation of feeds and so on.

Mothers with physiological or cultural supply issues can usually be helped to overcome these. When this is not possible, breast is still the 'best' for their babies, but maybe the baby needs donated breastmilk/formula alongside.

No one has ever implied on your thread that individual circumstances should be ignored. But what you will not get, ever, is a statistic saying x per cent of women will not make sufficient milk and therefore formula is best and the way to tell if you are in this x per cent is as follows.......

Because it just doesn't work like that!

(And we still are no further forward in being able to ascertain if breastmilk supply/intake is an issue with your baby...though I think you gave sufficient info to make it appear that there may well have been a real difficulty at the start).

I've been reading this thread on and off over the last couple of days but haven't read every single post so many apologies if I've missed or am repeating something.

I can't help but feel that this discussion (and the OP's purpose in posting) is really all about rhetoric and debate. It's an argument for argument's sake and as such could go round and round in circles for an eternity. My concern is that the 'to BF or not to BF' debate is very personal and difficult for parents and that this isn't really helpful in that more general sense.

You have been very clear OP (and there has been a lot of detailed debate) about your family not being a problem which needs to be fixed. I agree with other posters that one of the main purposes of MN is being missed here. We're all going to offer advice and support because that's why many of us come to MN in the first place. And possibly because BFing is such a tough thing, we want to help, we don't want to think that anyone is struggling like many of us have. It's horrible and I have huge sympathy and admiration for you and your DW as you get through this. I do think however that it's a little churlish to disregard the desire of MNers to help.

The truth is that lots of what you're saying is probably right OP. The BFing lobby, the mix-feeders, and the FFing fans are right too. Everyone is right because this is as personal and complex a decision as you can get. There's not going to be a massive lightbulb moment where the debate leads to an overarching agreement about how a child should be fed, or how feeding is talked about, or how a new parent should be supported, or whatever.

But then you know that don't you OP? You just want the debate. I can't help but think the very existence of this discussion (rather than its content) is indirectly helping you to cope in some way with the trauma, the helplessness, and the shock which for many goes with new parenthood. I'm really sorry if that sounds patronising because it's really not meant to be. It's totally reasonable and it's a response which many of us recognise.

Congratulations by the way and I hope you're enjoying parenthood. Whatever decisions you and your DW make about how to raise your DC, it really is the best thing you'll ever do. And as my Mam frequently reminds me, it all comes out in the wash.

Hi Limelight

I am not trying to reach some overarching agreement and I thought that debate might be good. With people able to express themselves on this forum in the form of debate, perhaps other readers may benefit from the discussion.

It doesn't always have to be about problems and solutions, sometimes just understanding that you are not freakish or a rare case can help.

There is no concious attempt to use this as therapy, after all, some of the posts would preclude this being useful therapy.

But if Mumsnet is not about debate then perhaps I do indeed have the wrong site.

tiktok I'm not going to pretend to predict the effect of formula milk on the human genome. However, the very existence of substitutes (cows milk, wet-nurse) to me suggests that throughout our thousands of generations, there has always been a requirement to help mothers with breastfeeding difficulties. That is not to suggest it would be widespread, but not as uncommon as we are led to believe.

I actually disagree on one point: breast is not "best"..... it is normal.

However, if, for whatever reason (and there are many good ones and a few sad ones) a woman is unable to breast feed or doesn't want to, then formula is an adequate substitute.

Not quite as good, for reasons that have been done to death - on a population level - but may well be the best option for an individual mother and her child. Always assuming she has had the proper support and that it is a decision she is happy with and is not going to regret later.

Sorry tiktok perhaps I should have qualified "breastfeeding difficulties" but you may be better placed to do that then I am.