BF and Top Ups.. arrgh..

[anonMum2]

Sorry.. a lengthy one.. but I feel like I'm losing this battle.

Basically, had a good start and doing well with BF until midwife took DS2 from me in the hospital when I needed rest and gave him a bottle when he was less than a day old. I kept going round to ask for him so I can put him on breast but they said he's fast asleep, this went on for around 7 hours. I later found out they gave him 30ml and that's why he slept for so long! Isn't that a bit much for a 1 day old baby??

Got home, EMCS, tiredness, pain.. lack of sleep, I struggled to latch him on properly since that bottlefeed at hospital. He started getting hungry and we were told to give top-ups so we did it with cups. Midwife told us to start him on bottles so he wouldn't be so hungry and I could get some rest as I wasn't sleeping at all. Made a bottle, very stupidly made 120ml even though I intended to give him around 30ml. MIL offered to help as I was sorting out DS1 and I gave clear instructions to just give him only 30 ml. Came back in 5 minutes and to my horror found MIL had given DS1 ALL the milk. Since then DS2 started demanding for top-ups after every feed rather than just the evening.

When milk came in, I had engorgement as baby wasn't latching on properly and I developed mastitis. Things got worse, sore nipples meant I couldn't just feed him non-stop as I intended to and I was once again advised by midwife to just feed every 3 hours and to give top up after he's been on the breast for a while as I get too sore.

He is now 10 days old and his top-up has gone up to around 90ml after each BF, a lot more in the evenings. I try very hard to put him on every 2.5hours (except night time when it's ever 4 hours), but it doesn't satisfy him and his top-ups are increasing. It definitely doesn't help when all well-meaning relatives who are staying with me keep saying things like "he needs more milk..." and keep offering to feed him when I'm bottle feeding him, hence stuffing more formula inside him than necessary. He then sleeps for far too long and has missed a few breastfeeds. DH has also started doing that now and I'm wondering if I'm the only cruel one trying to starve my DS2!

Why isn't my milk supply increasing?! His top-ups are increasing at an alarming rate and there is no way I can catch up. But if he doesn't get his top-ups he screams the house down and with so many visitors around and a toddler trying to sleep I cannot just let him scream. Have been talking about giving up BF for quite a few days now but would really love to continue BF if possible.. any advise appreciated.

Can you get rid of the visitors?

If he's taking 90ml per feed that's pretty much his entire milk intake isn't it? I'm no expert but I'm guessing your supply isn't increasing as the demand isn't there as he's full from the formula.

Would a babymoon be possible? Have you DH look after DS1 and just take the baby to bed for a few days, stay skin to skin and put him in the breast as often as possible.

Have you got the latch sorted now or is it still sore? Might be worth getting a breastfeeding counsellor to help you face to face.

Way too much formula for your supply to increase. IMO you need to get pumping to up your supply and then you could gradually replace the formula with ebm before dropping top-ups - I did this, but then I had a sick DD to start who then had real weight and feeding issues!

Too many visitors to deal with feeding your baby = too many visitors IMO. I'd "shut up shop" and get to bed with baby.

Can't get rid of visitors unfortunately.. we've got no relatives nearby and they've all travelled far and wide to stay and help us out.

Latch is better now unless I'm tired and I'd get sore bleeding nipples again. It's really difficult having flat nipples. I've also got strange painful tiny little lumps round nipples where DS seems to latch really hard on.

I have been thinking about expressing in between feeds but literally can't because I'm too sore. I'm feeding every 2.5 hours with each feed lasting at least 1 hour, so DS2 is on me nearly all the time,.. feels like it anyway. I would've thought that would definitely boost supply but it hasn't. Doesn't help either as I barely get a drop when I express and then everyone gives me the "told you so. You've got no milk for baby" look.

DH has just spoken to me about giving up again. Looks like this might be the end of BF.. :(

If the visitors want to help, great. they can do the shopping, make you meals and snacks including some for the freezer, do laundry and cleaning, bring you cups of tea, take the baby for a walk while you have a bath/nap and change nappies.

then you are free to feed your baby however you want. building up your supply takes a bit of time so your visitors can support you during this time. constant advice to give up is not support (unless of course you want to give up). BF advisors at support groups can help make a plan for gradually reducing formula and increasing breastmilk.

congratulations on your new baby!

Sounds like you might have latch/positioning issues affecting how efficiently your LO can feed.

If you want to continue to BF you should be able to but you need support not negative comments or unhelpful visitors.

Get the best irl help you can access on latch/positioning. I'd also wonder whether what I had to do might help you - I stopped bfing for 2 days and concentrated on pumping and resting to up supply. You'd need to pump alot - I did every 3 hours during the day and every 4 hours at night. This was what an NCT BFC suggested when I was desperate and at the end of my tether with no sleep and dropping supply. It saved my supply at a critical point so DD and I had more time to work on bfing. She's now 10 weeks and ebf.

I'm not en expert, but ladies on here have reminded me that the amount you express is not the amount you're producing/baby is getting. I can only express a few drops, but when DS feeds, can actually hear him gulping milk down.

I'd highly recommend moonunit's suggestion of a babymoon. Sod politeness, do what you have to, to make BF as easy as possible - being observed - or feeling observed - by others clearly isn't helping. Your DH should be supporting you on this.

Can you feed DS2 more often? Not sure how old he is, but my DS (9 days) is on the breast pretty much constantly. I was feeding him every 2.5/3 hours and the pattern was the same as your DS - feeding for an hour and never seemed full. But now I feed him whenever he even squeaks, which seems to work. He now feeds for approx 20 minutes at a time, and is sated. We FF once per day. My milk supple has definitely increased and DS is gaining weight - both of which I attribute to more feeds, more rest and more food.

I'm sorry I don't know enough to help you on this one, just wanted to offer support, and say that what everyone else said about visitors is spot on - gently explain to them that you really appreciate them coming to stay and help out, but that what you really need is DS1 taken care of, shopping, cooking, cups of tea etc so that you can concentrate on bfing. Make sure they understand how important it is to you and stress that you'll never forgive yourself (and hopefully they'll realise you also will never forgive them) if you don't give it your best shot.

And when these difficult first few weeks are in the past, please please consider complaining to the hospital via PALS www.pals.nhs.uk/ (Patient Liaison Service) - a midwife giving your baby formula without permission while you slept is absolutely unnacceptable

Thank you all for advice. Unfortunately with so little support from DH and everyone around me I'm now expressing 3 times today to reduce supply and stopping BF soon.. and hopefully not get mastitis again. Everyone is so desperate to bottle feed and satisfy DS2 themselves, I just can't compete whilst also recovering from EMCS, sore nipples and mastitis. I'm trying to convince myself its a good thing because now i have a lot more time to spend with DS1 not having DS2 on my boobs constantly. I wish I'd posted this sooner as it might've worked prior to DS2 wanting so much formula.

hope you recover quickly, enjoy your new baby and try to rest as much as you can. I found 1st 2 weeks or so after my EMCS hard then started to feel much better.

Thank you pyjamalover.

japhrimel, strangely just expressing for one day, I put DS on just now(advise from mw today because of blocked ducts and mastitis not clearing), and it seems a far better latch, not sore and DS is for once satisfied. How odd.. will see how it goes! Expressing is such a PITA tho and I can't seem to get anything out, i fell fed up just expressing 3 times so far. You've done well to fully express for 2 days!

mahraih, has it now settled at 9 days? I've been doing this for 13 days now. MW said today its probably because of my blocked ducts that baby isn't getting enough.

RJandA, i did agree that if I was completely out of it that they could give him some formula. But I wasn't and in fact checked on him at 11.30pm and said i wanted to BF him but they told me he was fast aleep and for me to get some rest, checked again at 1.30am, told the same thing, kept checking every 2 hours and finally at around 7am they gave him back and much to my surprise told me he was given a bottle at 1.15am.

tell everyone to butt out - who cares if nobody holds your baby bit you for the bext few weeks.

Have you heard of biological nurturing and baby mooning. Get loads of skin-to-skin (only nappy on your baby and blanket over both).

Formula may seem easier now, but (IMO) it is harder long term. I had a cs as well - it' really hard but you CAN get through it.

biological nurturing

a bit vom-inducing, but really good advice

Everyone is so desperate to bottle feed and satisfy DS2 themselves,

I'm sorry, this also makes me it's not about them, but you and your baby. They can wait on yo hand and foot - but leave the feeding to you.

If you want to ff, then fine, but please, please don't be pressurised into it, or you could really end up resenting them (my mum is still very angry about this neary 35 years later).

OMG this thread is making me really sad and quite angry. You need to tell your "helpful" visitors to butt out and p*ss off quite frankly. They are doing way more harm than good and they are being unbelievably selfish. Not one of them has any right to demand to feed YOUR baby.

I am very glad that your latest post sounds more positive. I firmly believe it is not too late for you to effectively start over.

Have a look at the links posted and do think about giving one of the helplines a call. It's usually a good idea to get someone else to call in case you get an answerphone (all run by volunteers in their own homes).

National Breastfeeding Helpline: 0300 100 0212

Association of Breastfeeding Mothers helpline 08444 122 949 - 9.30am to 10.30pm every day

Breastfeeding Network Supporterline: 0844 412 4664 - 9.30am to 9.30pm every day of the year

La Leche League Telephone Helpline: 0845 120 2918

NCT Breastfeeding Helpline: 0300 330 0771 - 8am?10pm, seven days a week

Your baby may well end up feeling quite stressed by this selfish treatment of your so-called helpful visitors. Babies need their mums in the first few days and weeks, not to be passed round and fed like a doll

What do YOU want to do? Sod what your visitors think (their motives are purely selfish, clearly). If you want to BF your DS then go for it, get all the help you need. It is perfectly possible. Don't let them make your decision for you - you are the one who will live with it, not them (not saying you should feel at all guilty for moving onto formula, but so many women do).

Even if you decide you don't want to BF, I would put a stop to the holding and feeding. You need to bond with him and he needs your presence to feel safe. There is all the time in the world for others to have their time. Now is not their time.

Good luck with whatever you decide

Thank you all so much for advice, kind words and links. I burst into tears today speaking to midwife when discussing about stopping BF and now in tears again reading all these. *dreaded baby blues hormones

BF DS2 3 times today and have read up a little about mixed feeding. It doesn't look like it's long before BF ends altogether with mixed feeding but I'll let him have breastmilk for as long as I can.

I know what you're all saying but I really can't be rude to all the people who are here to help, it's really frustrating. It has got worse today in that they actively take him off me constantly so 'I can rest'. When he stirs someone immediately picks him up (everyone else is quicker than me as I'm struggling with my CS) so I can't even determine why he's crying. Feels like I have to fight to be with my newborn! Never mind, that's another issue altogether.

Anyhow, I've come back to the conclusion that I really need to spend more time with DS1 anyway, who is extremely unsettled at the moment with all the visitors, new baby and a mummy who suddenly can't even help him get dressed or give him a proper cuddle! So mixed feeding for now and see how it goes.

How many people are there anonMum2?! Have you spoken to your DH about this? You say you can't be rude because they are there to help, but how exactly are they helping? They are stressing you out. They are most certainly stressing out your DS.

I wish I could come around there and get rid of them for you. This is appalling. They are sabotaging these vitally important days. Is it not worth standing up for yourself to rescue something so important?

Bloody hell, what an awful situation :(

I totally understand your position, with the visitors. Is there anyone, say your DH, who can be your ambassador here?

If you can focus on your babe, with the help you need, for just a few days or a week you can get the BFing cracked. Your older child will cope just fine with this, especially with all the help you have there - if they look after your DS1 for you. If they want to help YOU as opposed to "play with the baby" then they can really make a difference to you and both your children in the long term.

Mixed feeding doesn't mean that BFing will fail, so don't start out with that in your mind. But, if you do want to BF when all these visitors have gone, then you do really need to work on it now.

Forget the every 2 1/2 hours thing. Your latch sounds like it needs work (the flat nipples may be making it harder to get a good latch) so get your local NCT counsellor over (phone the helpline to organise this). If he's feeding for an hour every 2 1/2 then he's probably not getting enough from the feed because he's not feeding efficiently enough - which is causing blocked ducts and mastitis. Fix the latch and many of these things will get resolved but you do need him to be feeding more than every 2 1/2 hours.

I really do wish you every luck and strength to get through this how YOU want to. xxx

If I were you I would be taking myself off to bed and taking DS with me. If they want to "help" they can bring you drinks and food and stuff to read.

Mixed feeding doesn't NECESSARILY mean that BFing will fail, I should have said, but you're slowly replacing BFing with FF which is different. And mix feeding needs to be done as part of a plan to move back to BFing if you're going to get your full milk supply going.

Yes, get to bed and take DS2 with you. Tell them you will call if you need any help but in the meantime you both need some peace and quiet. That is not being rude, that is being a good mother and looking after yourself.

People like your visitors really cheese me off. They sabotage BF and interrupt bonding just so they can have their week of playing at being mummy or supernanny or whatever their pathetic fantasty is, and then they bugger off to leave the poor mother to the extra work of FF. It gives some women PND - this has happened to friends of mine.

Can't really add any more to what has already been said, but just wanted to add that it sounds like you are doing an AMAZING job. Well done and congratulations :)

If the visitors want to help, it should be with dc1. Get loud if you need to. Even if you have to blame it on the hormones. Try to get dh onside. You don't want this stress to trigger PND.

Csec recovery is hard, but take one day at a time. Will your visitors be there to help you with preparing night bottkes in a few months time? Try to think what will be easier for you then.

You are doing so well xxxx

Thank you again for all these. Without MN I would've thought I was either going mad or being very selfish wanting to have baby to feed and look after! I'm barely able to cuddle him at the moment as I'm told to rest all the time!

DH has gone into shut down mode due to the constant stream of relatives coming to stay and then going. He's really fed up and so is DS1. With hindsight we should've said no to all the offers after the first week. They ARE helping us out a lot though, so I can't complain and feel very bad even mentioning this.

DH was very supportive of BF at first but now really wants me to stop due to all the problems I'm having and the stress we're going through, so my support from him for BF is completely gone now. So I'm just persevering with 3 BF per day on my own and desperate for that to work. Even then DS2 still wants loads of top-ups after BF (sigh!). He tends to scream after BF for an hour, and that's when others immediately rush into the room and carries him off to feed him a bottle. I'm too sore to do anything and cannot BF for the next 3 hours(flat nipples..ouch ouch!), and feel like a complete failure not being able to satisfy DS's hunger.

Does anyone have any tips of links to making mixed feeding a success? I'm going to try fenugreek to up my supply so it wouldn't just dry up with all the bottles he's getting. Other than that not quite sure how this would work.

I think you need to speak to an expert - try one of those numbers (I wonder of TIKTOK is around). I would say (but I'm no expert) tp keep him on the breast.

If he screams after feeding, put him to the breast. It's a chicken and egg situation. Formula is replacing milk, so there is not enough milk being produced. You need to get the baby to feed to allow your breasts to produce more milk. There will be a period where he'll want to feed constantly. People will have to stop rushing to feed if you want to get your supply up.

I can't help with mixed feeding - maybe designate certain times for breast and certain for formulas and your supply (Ithink) will get used to this.

Things to think about.
-Will you dh be getting up in the night to sort bottles out in the future
-Breastfeeding is more than feeding - it is confort as well. If my baby cries I can offer him the breast, if my ff friend's beby cries, all she can do is jiggle and try to get him to stop.
-Babies feed a lot in the early days, some of those top ups he wants might be wanting to comfort suck and not hunger (althoug the comfort sucking will help your supply)

-Breastfeeding CAN BE HARD the fact that it is hard doesn't mean it is failing. I think it is important to remember this.

Sorry if I am over egging the bfing - my fist baby was nearly ff after time in SCBU (mixed fed, but with bad bfing advice) I am so glad I persevered, it worked out well and I fed for over 2 years.

This time it took me until about 7 weeks to be totally comfortable feeding, but now wek are well away, and again I am glad I continued.

I am sure someone who knows about mixed feeding will be along soon.