BF and Top Ups.. arrgh..

[anonMum2]

Sorry.. a lengthy one.. but I feel like I'm losing this battle.

Basically, had a good start and doing well with BF until midwife took DS2 from me in the hospital when I needed rest and gave him a bottle when he was less than a day old. I kept going round to ask for him so I can put him on breast but they said he's fast asleep, this went on for around 7 hours. I later found out they gave him 30ml and that's why he slept for so long! Isn't that a bit much for a 1 day old baby??

Got home, EMCS, tiredness, pain.. lack of sleep, I struggled to latch him on properly since that bottlefeed at hospital. He started getting hungry and we were told to give top-ups so we did it with cups. Midwife told us to start him on bottles so he wouldn't be so hungry and I could get some rest as I wasn't sleeping at all. Made a bottle, very stupidly made 120ml even though I intended to give him around 30ml. MIL offered to help as I was sorting out DS1 and I gave clear instructions to just give him only 30 ml. Came back in 5 minutes and to my horror found MIL had given DS1 ALL the milk. Since then DS2 started demanding for top-ups after every feed rather than just the evening.

When milk came in, I had engorgement as baby wasn't latching on properly and I developed mastitis. Things got worse, sore nipples meant I couldn't just feed him non-stop as I intended to and I was once again advised by midwife to just feed every 3 hours and to give top up after he's been on the breast for a while as I get too sore.

He is now 10 days old and his top-up has gone up to around 90ml after each BF, a lot more in the evenings. I try very hard to put him on every 2.5hours (except night time when it's ever 4 hours), but it doesn't satisfy him and his top-ups are increasing. It definitely doesn't help when all well-meaning relatives who are staying with me keep saying things like "he needs more milk..." and keep offering to feed him when I'm bottle feeding him, hence stuffing more formula inside him than necessary. He then sleeps for far too long and has missed a few breastfeeds. DH has also started doing that now and I'm wondering if I'm the only cruel one trying to starve my DS2!

Why isn't my milk supply increasing?! His top-ups are increasing at an alarming rate and there is no way I can catch up. But if he doesn't get his top-ups he screams the house down and with so many visitors around and a toddler trying to sleep I cannot just let him scream. Have been talking about giving up BF for quite a few days now but would really love to continue BF if possible.. any advise appreciated.

anonmum - sounds like you really need some good face to face help....not from a midwife who says breastmilk is more fatty in the day, though. That's simply not the case.

Breastmilk's fat content changes with the volume of milk in the breast, not with the time on the clock.

Am reluctant to chip in more, beyond emphasising that you need better real life help.

Ah, I was just about to put out a call for you Tiktok! I think you're right though that there is little that anyone can contribute to this over the internet right now, poor anonMum2 needs some help from a real life person. Listen to Tiktok AM2, she talketh much sense.

:) thanks, gaelic!!

anon, I think you are right that your baby is 'voting' for the bottle, because the breast is unproductive. You baby has had formula since day 1 and you have never been 'allowed' to breastfeed without someone sticking their oar in with the formula....and the formula has remained an important and major element of his intake. Very few women would have built up a breastmilk supply under these conditions :(

So real life help is essential as a rescue mission, I think.

Definitely get the best help you can find locally. IME MWs are pretty useless for bfing advice unless they are also infant feeding specialists or happen to be experienced bfeeders themselves. Otherwise they just stick you in cross-cradle, jam the baby on the boob and tell you a load of crap.

It was really really tough in the early days. I couldn't have done it without DHs total support and lots of IRL and online help with improving bfing (plus a double pump - more than halved the time a pumping session took).

When giving bottles, it is always important to insist on a good latch - if he baby hasn't got their mouth wide open wth tongue down, don't give them the teat. DH actually managed to "train" to put her tongue down this way after the BFC realised her lifting her tongue (slows the flow of milk from a bottle) was part of our problems.

The mw is an infant feeding specialist and bf all her children. She was really good and spent a long time with the latch and positioning. Having said that, since that wonderful day, DS2 has just not opened his mouth, no matter what time of the day or how full/hungry he is, and I am certainly noticing it getting worse each day. I will definitely try and train him to open his mouth before getting the teat.

Now that visitors are all gone, DH is not helping much either by giving DS so much FF. Few times I caught him trying to feed DS more FF, who was only screaming because of wind and drawing his legs up in pain. There's no convincing DH though even though I've shown him a few times all we need to do is wind him and he goes to sleep, because he says it works just as well when he makes DS drink more and he then nods off too. THis to him is a lot easier in the middle of the night than spending ages winding DS2. Also, DH has seen the amount I express and the amount of top-up needed, and he is absolutely convinced that DS is not getting much from me and therefore DS is starving. It really knocks my confidence and I'm really starting to think he's right (all the hunger screaming despite BF for 2 hours - 4 hours). I have no time for the family, sat there BF all day and night, an unsatisfied baby who then has to be fully FF by DH, plus all the faff washing/sterilising bottles. Gosh, it's really hard. (sorry, no sleep again last night and think it's really getting to me) I will cheer up soon, honest!

Will have to try another helpline today. So close to giving up again...

If you can find the right RL help (and get DH onboard) then you CAN do this. You need to decide if you want to.

Have a very un-Mumsnet hug

I don't know what to suggest about your DH other than asking him to support your breastfeeding efforts. I don't think I could've done what I did without my DHs support so extra well done to you getting this far!

Does your DH realise that if you did go to 100% FF, you'd have to be careful to not overfeed your LO? Stuffing more formula down them is not a possble solution and actually, if you did go to FF, you'd both have to work more on non-feeding methods of soothing (boob is such an easy solution to so many issues!).

stop the top ups and bf all the time as i doesnt look like you wanted to give up bf and tell everyone to fuck off with their "good" advice!!!

Thing is, anon, your DH is right in a way.

Your baby does need the formula because breastmilk has not been permitted to become established. This is why you need a plan to systematically reduce the formula over a period, probably a few weeks, in order to allow your breastmilk to increase without your baby going hungry or getting distressed.

IMO, this can only be done in real life with someone you trust and have confidence in, and with the support of the people around you, so you know they will not sabotage the plan.

Have you read the whole thread Ivette? Not quite as simple as just stopping the topups.

DId you say what area you live in? Someone on here may know of a good source of help for you in RL?

Struggling to find time to post try this

www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/decrease-formula.html

www.kellymom.com/bf/supply/decrease-formula.html

moonstorm - very useful. Definitely reduced FF too quickly. Poor DS!

Have called NBH and got more useful tips so going tp try them out. Don't think I need one yet, but if I wanted face-to-face do I have to ask for it?

There's a pdf at the bottom to print out and help you log. Might make it easier for dh to be onside if he has something to follow. Sorry to rush the posts

It sounds like you could really do with some face-to-face help. See if the NCT/LLL etc have anyone in your area who can help. See if the mw/hv/gp can refer you to someone? Please get some RL help... as others have said on here already, there is only so much a MN thread can do for you. You need real, proper, sensible face-to-face advice. and soon.

I think I'm quite happy with the latching help I got the other day, plus the extra tips on latching I got from calling NBH yesterday(I think I called too late in the day and that's probably why I wasn't offered ftf help). It's amazing how much I learn each time I speak/see someone or read something, so I'd definitely call NCT/LLL if I needed more help.

japhrimel - forgot to say - thank you so much for hug. :)

I got quite upset when DS2 took 6oz of formula at midnight after I'd fed him nearly the whole night(and I was far too tired then to feed or express) but having calculated how much FF he had demanded yesterday, it's 1oz less than the day before so perhaps it's slowly but surely getting better.. here's hoping.

Have quickly bought Breastflow bottles and ordered medela SNS. Breastflow bottles doesn't work at all, I still cannot get him to latch on properly after a bottle. Can't wait for SNS to arrive so I can get rid of bottles!

None of the helplines will routinely offer face to face help unless you ask for it, anon - the people who pick up the phone may not be in your area even. So it does not matter when you make the call. If you want real life help you must ask, and they will try to find someone for you if they can.

Good news about the dwindling top up but you need a plan to ensure this continues systematically.

tiktok, thanks for info. I didn't push for it as I was happier after speaking to someone. Have read kellymom's website plan posted by moonstorm to decrease formula so currently using that.

I think support on MN for BF is amazing. Cheers all!

How are you doing today?

Have you seen this thread?

Sorry just to throw stuff at you (please ignore if it's too much info - I'd rather give links and they be ignored than miss something useful).

fenugreek can increase milk production

Just seen it, thanks. It's still really tough. He's on me more than 10 hours a day at 4 weeks plus I'm expressing around 2 hours a day(only ever manage to express 1 miserable oz per day). Not sure if this right, but since stopping the milkmaid tea 2 days ago, I've noticed DS2 is getting even less satisfied and his top-ups have increased by a whole big feed in total. Not quite going according to plan. Won't get the tea delivered till next week which seems like an eternity for me!

Really need to have a rant as we only got 4 hours sleep again last night and no chance to sleep during the day since I BF and express all hours of the day. Doesn't work lying down as DS just falls asleep then since my milk flow is slow and little.

BF is not easy and has cost a fortune having to do both BF and FF. 10 hours a day BF DS plus 2 hours expressing, and not seeing things get any better, in fact getting worse, is really taking it's toll on me. :( I'm sure 12 hours per day of nipple being sucked/pumped and an unsatisfied baby who then practically takes a full feed after that, is not right. How many hours in total would you say your 4 week old was/is latched on?

moonstorm, just seen your fenugreek link. Yes, that's the sort of tea I'm drinking. It took me so long to type one-handed, I didn't see your post till now. :)

anon - of course this amount of feeding and expressing with no positive 'reward' of a satisfied baby, who still takes large top ups which are increasing in volume is not right.

But you know this.

You need to see someone in real life who you have confidence in, and from there develop a plan/programme to change things.

I think this might have been said before :)

It's really upsetting as I must have had at least a dozen people watch me latch and BF since baby was born and all say I'm doing it absolutely right. With each I've improved the latch a little nothing drastic as 'apparently' my latch has always been ok. Have already tried the MW who is an infant feeding specialist as well as the National Breastfeeding line. I will try NCT today but TBH I'm just dreading more disappointments.

I think going from FF to BF (not that I ever stopped BF which is why I'm so puzzled about my milk supply) needs to much effort and determination, I'm just not sure I've got what it takes. I am really amazed by all the mums here who have managed to get back to EBF.