BF and Top Ups.. arrgh..

[anonMum2]

Sorry.. a lengthy one.. but I feel like I'm losing this battle.

Basically, had a good start and doing well with BF until midwife took DS2 from me in the hospital when I needed rest and gave him a bottle when he was less than a day old. I kept going round to ask for him so I can put him on breast but they said he's fast asleep, this went on for around 7 hours. I later found out they gave him 30ml and that's why he slept for so long! Isn't that a bit much for a 1 day old baby??

Got home, EMCS, tiredness, pain.. lack of sleep, I struggled to latch him on properly since that bottlefeed at hospital. He started getting hungry and we were told to give top-ups so we did it with cups. Midwife told us to start him on bottles so he wouldn't be so hungry and I could get some rest as I wasn't sleeping at all. Made a bottle, very stupidly made 120ml even though I intended to give him around 30ml. MIL offered to help as I was sorting out DS1 and I gave clear instructions to just give him only 30 ml. Came back in 5 minutes and to my horror found MIL had given DS1 ALL the milk. Since then DS2 started demanding for top-ups after every feed rather than just the evening.

When milk came in, I had engorgement as baby wasn't latching on properly and I developed mastitis. Things got worse, sore nipples meant I couldn't just feed him non-stop as I intended to and I was once again advised by midwife to just feed every 3 hours and to give top up after he's been on the breast for a while as I get too sore.

He is now 10 days old and his top-up has gone up to around 90ml after each BF, a lot more in the evenings. I try very hard to put him on every 2.5hours (except night time when it's ever 4 hours), but it doesn't satisfy him and his top-ups are increasing. It definitely doesn't help when all well-meaning relatives who are staying with me keep saying things like "he needs more milk..." and keep offering to feed him when I'm bottle feeding him, hence stuffing more formula inside him than necessary. He then sleeps for far too long and has missed a few breastfeeds. DH has also started doing that now and I'm wondering if I'm the only cruel one trying to starve my DS2!

Why isn't my milk supply increasing?! His top-ups are increasing at an alarming rate and there is no way I can catch up. But if he doesn't get his top-ups he screams the house down and with so many visitors around and a toddler trying to sleep I cannot just let him scream. Have been talking about giving up BF for quite a few days now but would really love to continue BF if possible.. any advise appreciated.

I have asked Tiktok to look at this thread. Hope that is ok

Get rid of the relatives!

I agree, don't worry about being rude. Your relatives are the rude one's here.

Tell them to leave.

They are not doing you, your baby or your ds1 any favours at all.

Once they have all gone it will be much easier for you to climb into bed with the baby for skin to skin and still be able to cuddle/read chat to ds1.

Tell your DH that this is how you want to feed your baby and he can either support you to do it or butt out as well.

Congratulations and good luck.

Anonmum2 - sorry, just saw your question to me - has it settled after 9 days?

Answer - no! It's a lot better, but I wouldn't say we're 'safe' yet. BF as I have discovered, isn't easy, and it being hard doesn't mean its going badly. The reason its working, though, is because I don't have interference all the time.

Seriously, your relatives sound like they are the biggest contribution to your negative feelings about BF, and you are ALLOWED to ask them to butt out. Everyone on MN gives you permission! They have no right to just feed your kid, you're his mother!

To be honest, while your DH has to live with you, it isn't his choice at all whether you BF or not. If you want to stop BF and that's the best option for you, then absolutely do FF. But if you feel like you are FF for other people and you aren't happy with that, you have every right to take a stand.

I'd also say get rid of the visitors. They may think they are helping, but reading this thread, they are obviously not. Removing a baby from his Mum without being specifically asked is not a help. You need to tell people that - or just refuse to give them the baby! If they ask if they can help, tell them "yes, you can get me a cup of tea and slice of cake" or "yes, please, can you take DS1 to the park". If your DH has had enough of visitors, it's time to kick them out though - get him to do it!

The only real way to keep supply in the early days is for the milk to be taken out, preferably by the baby (though pumping will work too). Taking supplements will only really help if you are then emptying the breasts. 3 feeds a day is less than half of what would be expected when ebfing (8-10 a day) so it's not a lot really.

As someone who's been through the whole top-up nightmare, bottles really are not easier.

I know a fair bit about mixed feeding (yes it is really hard), but at the moment the OP's issue would appear to be kick starting breastfeeding. That is something I can't help with at all and you really need expert advice. I really really hope you will try to do this, because I sense that otherwise you will have regrets and resentment for a long time to come.

Your relatives seem to think they're doing the right thing OP, but they are just getting it all wrong. Of course you need to rest, but with your DS2 if at all possible. I am sorry your DH is not being supportive but I'm not surprised as IME men tend to want the quickest and easiest solution. Right now, to him, that appears to be bottle feeding. The easy part of breastfeeding is still some way away, even if things were going swimmingly, and I think that's particularly hard for a man to accept. He is also seeing you getting upset and probably misguidedly thinks that breastfeeding - as opposed to being prevented from breastfeeding - is what is causing the problem.

I mix fed ds1 until he was a year old. I was told at the time that it was more likely to be successful once bfing was established.

I agree with everyone who says to get rid of the relatives - they don't sound fun to have around, especially at a time when all you need to do is bond with your new baby and recover from your cs.
I hope you get this all sorted out xx

Thank you so much for your support. I managed to more than double BF feeds yesterday. DS2 is still not at all satisfied after bf but I'm persevering. I was told to stop BF halfway thru yesterday because it's meal time(something that would never happen if it was just us) and stared at for ages because I refused to unlatch DS2 but it worked and I finished feeding him. So thanks for giving me the guts to make my stand!

Downside is, it seems like the only way I could keep up with his demands is to feed 24/7 so that he doesn't have a chance to cry, but suspect I would end up without nipples if i do!

gaelicsheep & faverollees, was it a really slow process moving from mixed feeding to EBF? When mixed feeding, did you have to set certain times for FF and BF or was it just random?

I will be contacting the helplines soon.. think I'm still working out if I want to move back to BF or not.

talking to the helplines may well help with that, not because they'll give you an answer but because just talking to a sympathetic ear often makes you realise you know what you want to do.

I agree with everyone else, you need to control the relatives. EG if dinner is ready and I am feeding ds, my mil cuts up my food so i can eat one handed - that's the kind of help you need :)

At this age, they do feed A LOT! and round the clock - with breastfeeding you put in a lot of work early on and the benefits come later.

Is there a breastfeeding cafe/ group near you? It could be a good place to escape.

Feeds can take ages at this age with ds1 atfer my c-section, he would easily be latched on for an hour. However I had support and the enforced sitting while I fed HELPED be to recover from my cs.

If YOU want to ff/ mix feed, then do it. Just don't let anyone else push you in to it x

ou are doin really, really well. Well done.

Oh my gosh, I hate it when people do this to new Mums. It makes me so angry! Well done for taking a stand though. If you want to up your supply you can try switch nursing info here or just pumping for a couple of minutes after your baby finishes a feed. Even if you get nothing out, its the stimulation of the nipple that will help your body to order more milk. Remember though that it is early days, babies at this stage just want to be close to you and will often suckle for comfort as well as for food.

FWIW I've fed through a meal more than once, you can reheat food if it gets cold (as well as tea. God bless microwaves).

Don't let the visitors take over and force you into something that you don't wish to do, whatever happens you need to make the decision to BF/FF/mix feed on your own. I hope things get better soon.

hi anonMum2, sorry to hear you are having some problems - these early days are just bedlam aren't they? My second dd is 5 months now so I have come through them now, but the memory is very clear!!

Basically after bfeeding dd1 with no problem I had so many with dd2. Mastitis (definitely due to not concentrating on feeding properly as trying to look after visitors), agonizing bleeding nipples, thrush... couldn't put her on the breast at all for a week. I did breast & expressing, expressing & formula, back to breast & expressing then by 11 weeks fully back on the breast again.

On the breast she would feed for an hour/2 hours or more - I was feeding round the clock - exhausting!

With mixed feeding I expressed pretty much every 2.5 hourly during the day to improve supply (so exhuasting and boring - a double pump was a godsend). I gave her formula about 3 times a day (while expressing), then gave her the extra expressed bottles at night. I tend to give the formula later in the day - can't remember why though, but am sure there was a good reason).

I was so glad to get back to just breastfeeding - basically just replaced the formula feeds with breastfeeds (one every few days). I knew my supply must be ok as I had kept expressing throughout. Once fully back on breast it took about a week for her to be settled onto breastfeeding again.

Now it is such a dream - no bottles, no sterilizing, just feed and go - and I am so glad I perservered.

It was hard though, mixed feeding is just so time consuming isn't it, and I found been attached to the pump and doing all the sterilizing etc such a pain. For me, it was definitely worth it though, as it got my through the bad patch and enabled me to get back onto EBF.

I got a whole lot of support on mumsnet which was a lifeline to me.

Good luck to you whatever you decide to do. Enjoy your beautiful baby and look after yourself - to be honest, it sounds like you are doing really well to be perservering especially with dc1, CS to recover from and a stream of visitors as well as your new baby!

Best wishes xxx

Anon - well done for standing your ground and feeding him despite your helpers :)
I didnt mix feed until Ds was about 8 weeks old.
I would say at the moment for you, if you want to carry on bfing, don't let the amount of formula be increased at all, and keep him with you all the time (don't feel guilty about ds1 - you need time with your new baby without him being taken away from you) Ifvyou feed him as often as he squeaks or looks like he might need feeding, as often as he wants, your milk supply will go up.
Your relatives will probably tell you that he's obviously not satisfied because he's not going 2 or 3 hours between feeds, but they will be wrong!
Anyway, sorry about a weird, disjointed post - been up all night.

Well done for standing your ground!

really glad you stood your ground too. I've found you have to be quite bloody minded to BF with helpful relatives suggesting you give formula when you have a problem. my baby is 12 weeks old and I eat about 80% of my meals while feeding!

IMHO your visitors should be ashamed of themselves for not giving you time as a family

When you say your DS2 is never satisfied after a breastfeed what do you mean? Do you mean he will never fall sleep afterwards. Does he always cry? Under what circumstances? I have to say I think your poor DS2 is probably really really stressed out right now.

If you want to keep up the BF I agree with faverelles that you should definitely not increase the formula at all from this point. Ignore every single comment from your friends/relatives about frequency of feeds, erratic sleep patterns and anything else, as it is clear they have no clue about any of this.

Do get some advice about the sore and flat nipples as you want to make sure that frequent feeds are not doing any damage because of a less than ideal latch, for example. It is tough when your baby wants to be attached to you all day long but it is totally normal. I found it helpful to think of the comfort of the breast as replacing the safety of the womb and helping the baby make the transition into the outside world.

I have mix fed twice. The first was from one week old and we continued for nearly 5 months, but our bf problems were never solved (undiagnosed tongue tie) and formula gradually took over (my choice in the end). The second time consisted of night time bottles until DD was 12 weeks. The amount of formula was always relatively small and switching back to EBF was as simple as stopping the bottles. A couple of days of fairly intensive b/f and my supply caught up just fine.

Your situation is a little more difficult, but the fact that you have come this far is a really great sign. Mother Nature does not switch off milk production just like that - for all Nature knows your baby might be ill and not feeding well yet. You have time to turn this around and you're doing all the right things. Hang in there, get some advice, rest and feed, feed, feed!

Wow! Thank you all for support and also answering my questions.

gaelicsheep, once DS2 has had his top-ups, he always stops screaming and rooting, and is finally happy to play, get changed, or just lie down or even sleep. Our top-ups are pretty big, 3-4oz which is the whole babies feed, which really makes me wonder what I'm giving him in an hour's feed! It no longer hurts after the initial latching, breast is also emptying so latch must be fine. He's once again latched on around 8 times per day. Really confused why supply is not increasing.

I think your supply isn't increasing because of the top ups. The more ff your LO gets the less bm you will make. Putting him to the breast only 8 times in the day doesn't sound like often enough for such a new baby. The only way to increase your supply is to feed, feed, feed (pumping may work too but not as well and more hassle than just feeding). Try not to use top ups and perhaps try feeding more often.

Well done for making a stand with the visitors - keep it up. You won't remember missing a couple of meals or cheesing someone off for a couple of hours but if it effects your chances of bf then you will remember that for longer. Mixed feeding may well work for you in the long term but I think you probably have to try and start with bf first and then add in the formula once your supply is matched to the needs of you LO rather than the other way areound.

I think you need some RL help with this, please try one of the bf helplines - they will be able to talk it through with you and don't worry about the ff part of what you are doing. They will be used to lots of women topping up etc.

To up supply, you need to up what is taken from the breasts. If you're not happy just dropping the top-ups, you could do what I had to do (after a rocky scbu start) and express so that you can first transition to ebm only top-ups before slowly dropping the top-ups.

Don't have any advice but ooh this sounds hard. With the visitors thing my in-laws visited when DD was 2weeks old and seemed to spend the entire time complaining that I was over-feeding her (I may be exaggerating - I felt a bit sensitive at that point). In other respects they were kind and helpful, but I had to be very firm when MIL kept extolling the virtues of a 4 hourly schedule etc and trying to take DD off for a nap (or extended screaming session).

9m on and they are still convinced she didn't need to feed so frequently even though she was only on the 2nd centile for weight. But after succesfully bf-ing DD for 9.5m it turns out I couldn't give a flying fuck what they think. I know it is hard to be rude to people who are only trying to be nice, but if you want to bf then you may have to be a little bit difficult in the short term. Once your baby is 4m old and won't feed for more than 5mins at a time there will be plenty of opportunities for family to interact with your lovely smiley little one.

veronicacake - oh yes, i wa also accused of feeding him all the time yesterday and to switch to FF.

Everyone here are saying to feed more.. and I would really like to but i feel he's already on constantly! This is typically how much I BF DS2, top-ups given due to sore breasts and screaming baby otherwise I wouldn't let him have them now:

7am - BF 2 hours (followed by 2oz top up)
10am - BF 1 hour
11.30am - BF 1.5 hour ( followed by 3oz top-up)
3pm - BF 1 hour
5pm - BF 2 hours(followed by 3oz top-up)
8.30pm - BF 2 hours (followed by 4oz top-up before baby stops screaming)
1am - BF 1+ hour (followed by 4oz top-up)
4am - BF 1+ hour (followed by 3oz top-up)

Does this sound like what everyone is doing? MWs all say this is too much which is why my nipples are sore.

That sounds about right to me!

I kept a log of it when we were having issues. This was a GOOD day when I had time to het out of bed/put the washing on, etc. Today, he hasn't been more than 30cm awat from my breasts since 4am. He's on there now!

08.00 - 25 minutes
09.30 - 15 minutes
11.00 - 30 minutes
12.30 - 10 minutes
13.45 - 20 minutes
16.30 - FF 2 oz
17.00 - 5 minutes
17.45 - 20 minutes
19.00 - 25 minutes
20.30 - 35 minutes
22.00 - 25 minutes

For sore nipples, have you tried Lansinol? It's great stuff - DS hates the taste though.

Mahraih, your schedule is more what I'd like to have, i.e. only feeds for 20-30 minutes and be satisfied and I wouldn't mind feeding frequently. But DS2 is on me 1-2 hours at a time, sometimes back on again after half an hour for another 1-2 hours and still not satisfied whatsoever. This has happened since day 2 and has gotten worse.

This morning, strangely DS2 fussed, tugged and pull on me for 2.5 hours(yes, NON-STOP feeding as I was trying to up my supply and expressing doesn't work for me), and I'm now crying from the pain. mega-ouch! I can't believe I'm going to have to say this dreaded line but perhaps I'm just not meant to BF. :(

Oh dear, please don't say that :( Trust me, the day I posted was, as I said, a good day. This morning I genuinely have not even bothered to get out of bed as there's no point, he's constantly on.

DS has times when he just fusses, bounces on and off the nipple, tugs, cries, doesn't latch. He does this from about midnight to 2am.

Have you tried calling La Leche League or similar? I found them very, very useful and supportive... so sorry I can't give advice, I'm just as much of a novice as you are! But if your DS2 is getting even a bit of breast milk, that will be doing him some good. You sound like you're doing brilliantly under some difficult circumstances. :)

Anne, I've had a baby who needed to suck for comfort, so appeared to feed all the time (I don't have a log, but I remember everyone telling me I was feeding him too much), and another who (I think) wanted to suck for comfort, but would scream and pull off then keep wanting to go back on. with him, I think he had tummy pain and I needed to find other ways to calm him (sling, sucking finger or muslin) but if you're trying to build supply I don't know how appropriate these would be. I have heard that settling after formula does not necessarily mean they're hungry after bf, just that formula fills them up quickly and is hard to digest.

have you spoken to a breast feeding counsellor? it sounds like you could use some one to one advice. I found them very helpful when I struggled in the early days with ds1. they really know lots about feeding babies, gaelicsheep posted the numbers earlier in the thread.