BF and Top Ups.. arrgh..

[anonMum2]

Sorry.. a lengthy one.. but I feel like I'm losing this battle.

Basically, had a good start and doing well with BF until midwife took DS2 from me in the hospital when I needed rest and gave him a bottle when he was less than a day old. I kept going round to ask for him so I can put him on breast but they said he's fast asleep, this went on for around 7 hours. I later found out they gave him 30ml and that's why he slept for so long! Isn't that a bit much for a 1 day old baby??

Got home, EMCS, tiredness, pain.. lack of sleep, I struggled to latch him on properly since that bottlefeed at hospital. He started getting hungry and we were told to give top-ups so we did it with cups. Midwife told us to start him on bottles so he wouldn't be so hungry and I could get some rest as I wasn't sleeping at all. Made a bottle, very stupidly made 120ml even though I intended to give him around 30ml. MIL offered to help as I was sorting out DS1 and I gave clear instructions to just give him only 30 ml. Came back in 5 minutes and to my horror found MIL had given DS1 ALL the milk. Since then DS2 started demanding for top-ups after every feed rather than just the evening.

When milk came in, I had engorgement as baby wasn't latching on properly and I developed mastitis. Things got worse, sore nipples meant I couldn't just feed him non-stop as I intended to and I was once again advised by midwife to just feed every 3 hours and to give top up after he's been on the breast for a while as I get too sore.

He is now 10 days old and his top-up has gone up to around 90ml after each BF, a lot more in the evenings. I try very hard to put him on every 2.5hours (except night time when it's ever 4 hours), but it doesn't satisfy him and his top-ups are increasing. It definitely doesn't help when all well-meaning relatives who are staying with me keep saying things like "he needs more milk..." and keep offering to feed him when I'm bottle feeding him, hence stuffing more formula inside him than necessary. He then sleeps for far too long and has missed a few breastfeeds. DH has also started doing that now and I'm wondering if I'm the only cruel one trying to starve my DS2!

Why isn't my milk supply increasing?! His top-ups are increasing at an alarming rate and there is no way I can catch up. But if he doesn't get his top-ups he screams the house down and with so many visitors around and a toddler trying to sleep I cannot just let him scream. Have been talking about giving up BF for quite a few days now but would really love to continue BF if possible.. any advise appreciated.

Please please please get the best irl help you can. If your latch is great, it shouldn't make you too sore and if latch AND positioning are great, your LO should get plenty. Fussing, tugging and pulling, along with pain, sounds like you still have some improvements you could make.

Your schedule (with top-ups) sounds similar to what I was doing early on and we had to get help so DD could get a deep enough latch to get enough fattier milk. FWiw though, without top-ups, she still feeds alot and at that stage fed for long periods of time. That's pretty usual nb stuff afaik.

Having said she still feeds alot, she still cluster feeds when awake, but sleeps 8 hours at night and has 2 naps a day. I'm happy with the compromise!

Maybe consider pumping to up supply while you get some help and practice?

Hang in there. It naturally gets so much easier as they bigger anyway.

I agree with japh - you really do need to see someone in RL to help you with this. Please try the helplines and see if they have anyone local who can help. Or ask your HV who the local bf specialist person is... someone who is really experienced in dealing with bf problems.

I hope you don't mind me saying but I am so impressed with you and how you are doing.

I had really flat nipples before bfing. Now they make me proud with how they stand out I think the being pulled out does make you sore. But it could be latch.

This info could help:

breasfeeding website

fussing or crying while nursing

cluster feeding and fussy evenings

very good page about increasing your milk and also talks about what is normal breastfeeding behaviour

latch and positioning videos - these helped me a lot in the early days. Have to say though, some nipples are enormous - mine were really really flat

signs baby is getting enough milk - 2nd half is also interesting

general dr Jack Newman info sheets

I realise that there are loadds of links, but you can pick and choose.

You are doing really, reslly well and you CAN do this.

Ps could you give a vague area as to where you live - I coud try to find some local help/ support groups near you (You could PM me if youy don't want to say here). Totally understand if you don't want to say on a puplic site. Just say no if you don't like this idea

Sorry I haven't had time to read the whole thread but just the last 6 or so posts and just want to say that a ten day old constantly on the breast was normal for me. We didn't, with my DTs (who were ebf) get any real space between feeds until they were about 10 weeks old.

Also echo what I am sure many have said that top ups will result in your supple decreasing and it can be a vicious cycle that can end breastfeeding.

Hopefully Tiktok will be along soon (love your subtle 'call' on the bf board, moon )

Only just seen this, sorry - moonstorm sent me a shout :)

It's a sad situation - 'helpful' relatives and poorly-trained midwives are messing up your valient efforts at bf :( :(

I'm going to be fairly direct.

Your baby is having so much formula that breastfeeding does not stand a snowball's chance in hell - really and truly. This is a baby aged 17 days, and he had 19 ounces of formula yesterday - this is massive.

It has to be cut down - gradually, not straight away, in order for your breastmilk to stand chance of building up. Only if you start cutting down on the formula do you have a prayer of breastfeeding - this sounds brutal, but it is the biology of it.

You are in a really tricky situation - you are able to keep your baby content only with formula, and you need to break out of this cycle.

The long breastfeeds sound demoralising, too. Can you talk to someone expert about all this, who can develop a plan for you to feed more effectively and to start reducing the top ups? Your confidence is low and the people around you are critical and unhelpful - you need a midwife or a breastfeeding counsellor who can observe you feed, who can kick ass with your relatives or support you in doing so, and who will stick with you over a period of a week or two until you get this sorted.

I don't think a talkboard is going to be enough apart from cheer leading and confirming that things need sorting out properly in real life :( :(

It definitely seems like I need more help with latching if baby is not satisfied after all my effort the last 3 days. :( I've found a specialist midwife breastfeeding number from my hospital pack so will try that first I suppose?

Been BF DS practically all day non-stop today so completely knackered again. Even then he has already had 3 huge top-ups just to give me a break in between(once again relatives have just grabbed the bottles off me and fed him more than I'd like.. grrr!). :)

I can't thank you all enough for your support and links(have read most of them)! Hopefully some IRL help would sort all these out soon and I can start enjoying my newborn.

Have PM'd you with some groups. I hope you can meet up with some real people . Let us kknow how you get on x

I've only just seen this thread anonMum. I hope you get the support you need from a BF counsellor. I had mastitis too in the early days with DS1. I had a wobble with BF and I used formula for a day or two, then mixed, then eventually back to just BM. We carried on until he was 15m old.

I hope you get the support you need. If you can get the hang of feeding lying down in bed you can get rest as you feed. And take baby to bed with you so he's not nabbed by all your visitors. Have you got some lansinoh cream for sore nipples? It works wonders, it does, even during feeding marathons.

I think you need to be brutally honest with visitors, your way or the highway, could you discuss with DH to try to get him on side?

Anonmum you really need to TELL your visitors to stop feeding YOUR baby! They are really not going to help your amazing effort at breastfeeding. You dont need to be rude about it, just say politely, "I am going to do all the feeds today. (wether bf or ff) If you could help with xyz instead that would be fantastic." One or two days constant feeding will help so much and if your baby is happy to just feed I would let them! This is your baby and if you want to breastfeed it really isnt up to your visitors to undermine that by snatching him off you and topping him up. You need to forwarn them to stop doing it. Definately get someone to come and help in real life- listen to tiktok!

I wouldn't even see the visitors, stay in bed all day with your LO, then there is no issue with anyone else trying to feed him. They really need to leave you alone til you get this sorted if they can't restrict themselves to hoovering/cooking/washing duties... I agree, get your DH to tell them. This is soooo much more important than being worried you might offend someone.

How are you getting on today?

ps thanks Tiktok for coming over.

Hi anonmum2. I have a bit of advice but I'm no expert so please don't everyeone else flame me if this is not official advice.

I have had 6 kids though so perhaps what I do works.

I also mix feed and I think what worked for me was doing the same bf feeds every day. So for eg I always do 2 night feeds bf and no formaul. There seems to be tons of milk at night and dd is always satsified. Likewise I do her first feed of day bf at 7.30am and then next 3 feeds - about 3 hours apart formula.

It mayu be - and again this is not backed up by official or scientific research - just what I tnhink may be happening - your supply matures to produce only at the time when it is called upon. So my breasts make enough for night feeds and always will now provided I continue those feeds but not at the 3pm feed as I have replaced that.

So you could try this - sticking to bf feeds at same time each day rather than varying it

I think that's absolutely fair enough , but you do have to establish that milk supply to begin with which is where poor Anonmum is struggling just now.

Please do give us an update if you can AnonMum!

Hi all, sorry for the silence but you won't believe this... more visitors! so feeding was choppy yesterday and i didn't get any rest.

I'm still doing the same thing - putting ds on everytime he chirps or cries until I get too sore, which is normally 1.5 to 2 hours when he has sucked me dry! It is still very disheartening watching him down 4oz after feeding for 2 hours.

The midwife bf isn't open till Monday so hopefully tomorrow will be a better day. :)

Also, thanks all for advise re. lansinoh, I am using them and would've stopped ages ago if not because of it.

Forgive typos or if things don't make sense, typing one handed and lack of sleep as DS2 stayed awake all last night!

thougt I'd post this as its rather sweet... whereas all visitors all ask if I want a bottle each time baby cries, the other day when baby cried, DS1 told me "he wants milk" and immediately tried to pull my top down to bf DS2. bless! Even a 2 year old can see that i'm trying very hard to bf rather than ff.

Awwww! I hope the help in real life makes a difference (have you tried the helplines to see if there is a breastfeeding counsellor locally who may be able to help? They do home visits which can make a world of difference).

With the visitors I realise how demoralising it is and how little energy you must have for this nonsense right now but have you felt able to make a stand at all? It is not rude or unreasonable to say 'Actually I'm breastfeeding, please don't offer my baby a bottle' or 'I've finished offering him this bottle he does not need any more milk'. If you said 'Actually we don't eat pork please don't offer my child a sausage' or 'My son has already said he is full please don't pressure him to eat any more food' you can see that they aren't rude at all. They are just statements about how you are doing things as a family and they should be respected.

If people get snotty or take offence when you say things that are reasonable that is entirely their problem. Not yours. You are doing an awesome job at a tough time and you shouldn't be having to worry about your visitor's hurt feelings on top of everything else.

I hope the MW is able to help lots tomorrow but would highly recommend calling the NCT/ABM/BfN/LLL to see if they can help too.

Hi. I'm so glad you're still persevering, but I have to say that you are "blessed" with one of the most ignorant groups of people as family/friends that ever walked the earth. You poor thing.

I echo VeronicaCake's post. Please do give one of the helplines a call. Their volunteers are highly trained - much more so than most MWs - and they really do know what they're talking about. I posted the numbers earlier in the thread.

Managed to get in touch with a lovely BF midwife who came round to see me straightaway. Worked on the latch and DS seems satisfied after our session (still fast asleep). It wasn't easy and took a really long time but I've never seen him satisfied from BF before so really pleased. I've been warned it's going to be hard work as I've not got the first 3 weeks right and that top-ups are currently far too much which will take many weeks to cut down(basically what everyone here has said), but that it can still be done. Nothing new really except improving my latch so fingers crossed! :)

Just in case I go MIA, want to thank you all again for your support, effort and time(posting me links, numbers and support groups). Would've stopped ages ago if not for MN, at least DS2 has had, if nothing else, 3 weeks+ of breastmilk.

anon, great news!! Keep persevering. And I agree with all the others NO MORE VISITORS and definitely don't let them feed your baby. (I would hide the formula when visitors come round who try to undermine your feeding choices).

Sounds great! Our first 3 weeks were a bit of a mess too, but DD is now 11 weeks and ebf and bfing is so so easy. You can do it too - just be firm with those visitors!

Well done you. You will get there with a bit of hard work and some confidence, and you can come back here and tell us when you've made it to 2/4/6/12... months! So pleased you have found someone helpful in RL - keep seeing her if you need to :)

Well done you.

Have some as a motivational present!

Let us know how you get on xxx

You're allowed a little too. Brilliant news. Keep up the good work!