can't believe this conversation in the dr's surgery yesterday

[muslimah28]

little baby came in with his mummy for their 6 week post natal check. mummy is trying to wind baby in the waiting room.

another mummy with a c2 year old says to her 'i found with my son, just changing the formula helped'.

mummy to 6wk old replies, 'no i just use what i did for all 4 of mine, it can't be the formula.'

at no point did 2yr old's mummy say 'are you formula feeding', or 'how are you feeding him', there was just an assumption that she was formula feeding, and it turned out she was right.

i was just a bit shocked to see yet more proof of how much of a formula feeding culture we have here.

didn't want to add this to the other thread going on at the moment, its just way too long.........but interested in thoughts!!

my eyes

A few weeks ago, perhaps even a few days ago, I'd have got worked up about the suggested reasons for ff given further down the thread. Now I'm feeling less sensitive about the whole thing I can step back a bit and consider why I would have got worked up.

There clearly is a ff culture which is epitomised by the kind of conversation described by the OP. I think the reason I used to feel got at is that I resented being lumped in with the many women who don't bother trying to bf or half heartedly try and give up at the first hurdle. There was no sign on my forehead saying "reluctant formula feeder" - for all anyone knew I'd been giving formula from day one. And yes, in this ff culture probably no one cared, but I cared very much.

It's easy for me to say now since I've managed to dump the bottles and get back to EBF. That never happened with DS who was fully ff from 4 months, and the hurt stayed with me for years.

From my pov, I would be sad not for the individuals in question, but because ff is so ingrained in the culture that it's assumed that's how any mum is feeding their baby. That's the sad bit.

Alice, no way to know that.

Well you may not be able to tell the difference between two children, but there's research that demonstrates across the population that there are some effects.
That's why they say breast is best (awful slogan I know).

One child who was bf might have had health issues if ff. Might not. There's no way to tell that, without a multiple-universe-producing machine to check.

There are lots of factor, I don't think breastmilk is the answer to all the world's problem, though DS would disagree.

I think the multiple-universe-producing machine needs funding, NOW!

Re: the differences between breast and formula fed babies. How much of the differences in health and intellect etc are as a result of genetics, parenting style, diet etc? Where the Mothers decision to at least try breastfeeding is a symptom rather than a cause? I have no real view on this, but it was said to me the other day and its something I am mulling over at the moment.

Also if Muslimah is shocked at that conversation she should have heard the women I was with the other day at the school gates discussing the 'stench' of breastmilk in great detail. A breastfed baby had been sick on or near one of them and they all agreed how revolting the smell of breastmilk is and how awful it makes baby sick [anger].

I am ashamed to say I stood by and said nowt

Well I've had sick from both, and I can assert that ff sick is much worse! Not surprising given the way it smells when it goes in.

I do think it's a very fair point about the social factors that affect health outcomes. They always say they adjust the figures to allow for these factors, but I can't understand how they can exclude them completely without doing a detailed analysis of the mindset of every single mother.

I suppose one could argue that if more babies were breastfed then this could help to negate the effects of the other social factors. But then if you can persuade a mother to breastfeed, I can't see her then sending her kids to school on a breakfast of crisps and a can of Coke.

Yep, I couldn't believe it.. all of DS's expulsions smelt sweet as a freshly mown field in springtime while he was EBF .

I think its Breastfeeding is wonderful (& a complete headfuck too TBH), but the fact I will be giving DC2 the best possible start in every other way will hopefully ease the guilt if I struggle with BF again this time. I certainly won't be a complete BF martyr again

That's what I said Giddyup. Famous last words. Still I've managed to finally crack it this time, so the martyrdom has been worth it. I'd rather it'd just been easier though.

yy Gaelicsheep, I was unsure as to whether I should post that little theory. In case I was being classist or snobby about BF or summat, which I am not (I'm a fine one to talk). But it does kind of hold true IME

well done! How long did it take?

15 weeks. Night time bottles (formula) from 2 weeks to 12 weeks. Nipple shields from 2 weeks to 15 weeks. She's 16 weeks today and exclusively fed from the bare breast!!

Oh, but on bad nights I do have to stop myself from resorting to a bottle again. I haven't so far though, and I'm pretty sure I won't. I've worked too hard.

Hats off to you gaelic

"It is a good idea to not continue to read a thread or not even open them if by the title of the thread we may end up feeling over-sensitive about the topic."

What an absolute crock.

So you can only engage on here if it's something you feel sangue froid about? God forbid you post about something you actually feel emotional about.

CAn you imagine what this site would be like if we all obeyed with that rule of yours foxytocin??

"Show me a bf child at 5 yrs. Show me a ff child at 5 yrs. In this country. With no variables apart from the bf/ff one.
There will be no difference in health/intellect/weight"

Or the ones who've been smoked all over at home or the vast majority of those whose mothers drank and smoked their way through pregnancy. Or those who eat a super-crap diet at home.

Because these things are subtle innit, and not obvious to the individual. That's why it took years of research to work out that smoking and drinking weren't good for fetuses or children! If it had been obvious then doctors wouldn't have been encouraging pregnant women to drink guinness and smoke during pregnancy for several decades in the middle of the 20th century!

OP - it is frustrating and suprising sometimes how slow the pace of social change is when it comes to baby feeding, especially when you think about how as a society we're obsessed with children's health and safety issues.

"The miniscule differences can be made up by the influences you describe"

The research current infant feeding recommendations are based on control for things such as social class, education, parental age, smoking and income etc.

And the 'miniscule' differences are not so 'miniscule' when you look at things like hospital admissions for respiratory and gastric illness, with 5 times as many bottlefed babies being admitted to hospital with gastric illness as exclusively bf babies in the first 6 months of life.

Not trying to be confrontational or anything, but I do think it's helpful to acknowledge what's actually been said by the medical establishment on this subject, rather than just plucking ideas out of this air.

Giddyup - acres of scientific research, especially systematic analyses covering lots of studies, say you are wrong.

Epidemiology tells us about populations, not individuals. One bottle fed individual may score more highly than one breast fed individual on whatever it is you are measuring.

But out of 1,000 babies, when you track them years later, you will find there are noticeable effects of formula feeding. And when you hold your newborn in your arms, you have no way of knowing whether they will be fine whatever or whether the method of feeding will have an effect them.

That's not a criticism of any individual. It's a point about the demonstrable health effects of bottle feeding. It's a crying shame that women who do want to b/f get such crappy support and so much misinformation from advertising (getting round the ban) from a society which has a bottle feeding culture and from health professionals who should know far better.

Edam, as I said it was something mentioned to me by somebody I was discussing my imminent 2nd and hopefully more successful foray into breastfeeding with (managed 16 miserable and depressive weeks last time).

I mentioned it on here as when I think about it, it does anecdotally match up to who I have seen try and BF in RL (Obviously anecdotal evidence has no bearing on scientific research). I am interested in others views, thanks for your sensible (and obviously backed up by a proper understanding of research answer)

I am off for my last swim in the sea for this year now... if I can face bearing myself on the beach (it will certainly be excellent contraception for anyone else down at the the beach in Bournemouth today!).

I am wondering if the shock of the freezing water will set things off

i can think of plenty more juicy/omg things to overhear in gp rather than how a mum feeds her baby.genuinely some of you have skewed priorities in life if a ff baby causes that much consternation