can't believe this conversation in the dr's surgery yesterday

[muslimah28]

little baby came in with his mummy for their 6 week post natal check. mummy is trying to wind baby in the waiting room.

another mummy with a c2 year old says to her 'i found with my son, just changing the formula helped'.

mummy to 6wk old replies, 'no i just use what i did for all 4 of mine, it can't be the formula.'

at no point did 2yr old's mummy say 'are you formula feeding', or 'how are you feeding him', there was just an assumption that she was formula feeding, and it turned out she was right.

i was just a bit shocked to see yet more proof of how much of a formula feeding culture we have here.

didn't want to add this to the other thread going on at the moment, its just way too long.........but interested in thoughts!!

wasting Info here
I had already decided I wanted to BF. Ended up not doing the full 6 months EBF for other reasons but the support was fantastic.

Are the majority of babies really FF, scottishmummy? If so, I think that's awful.

I'm with muslimoh28, it's really sad that the presumption is that a child is FF. DD was a big baby and people often presumed she was formula fed (which she never was) and I took it as very negative criticism.

What a shame that BF isn't the norm.

here's a quote from a unicef article:

"...breastfeeding rates in the UK are amongst the lowest in Europe: 76 per cent of babies born here are breastfed at birth, falling to 63 per cent at one week. Only one in five babies still receives breast milk at six months. Infant feeding experts are unanimous in their response to as to why this is: Britain is a bottle-feeding culture. Source: here

just to quickly clarify a few questions raised: 6wk old mum went to talk about SMA so was definitely FF; it was quite clear they didn't know each other; no i did not feel smug.

as i said above, formula definitely has a place. i think tiktok or tabouleh once pointed out that those of us who are pro BF are not anti FF, we're anti FF advertising. i would add to that i'm anti the FF culture.

there are valid reasons for FF, hey i used it too! and i think AutumnLady cited some good reasons too (this was going to be a possible reason for me to give up BF, when a particular medication was considered for my postnatal problems which is not suitable for BF, but in the end i didn't need it)

but the following reasons i have read on MN for FF to me are ignoring what's best for your baby (and that should be the starting point for making a decision)

-its so much easier
-BM is 'naughty milk' as quoted by one MIL, link to the over sexualisation of breasts
-i want to know how much milk my baby is taking
-BFing takes too long

oh, and i fully acknowledge that i have no idea what reasons the women had for FF, they may have been sound (though for the lady who FF 4 babies, it is more likely she did so out of choice, though clearly i cannot say that for certain...). my point in highlighting the incident was not the individual decision these mums made, but the assumption underlying the conversation of FFing. as UNICEF say, we have a formula feeding culture.

What a silly post lal123. Are you really saying that women who ff will also introduce solids early? I'm sure some do but I think it is unfair to imply the two go hand in hand.

maybe they knew each other?

myabe the one with the baby had formula in her bag and the other mother saw it?

OP can we just talk about two of the reasons you've listed, that people use formula because they are ignoring what's best for their baby:

-its so much easier
-BFing takes too long

Has it ever crossed your mind that breastfeeding being difficult and taking too long might actually be indicative of breastfeeding problems that need sorting out rather than a mother just ignoring what's best for their baby?

You've made me very, very angry, so I'm going to try to remain calm as I make my point as calmly as I can because the anger is related to my own personal experiences.

Both of my DD's were very difficult to feed, fed for hours - and I mean hours and hours and hours and still never got satisfied and still lost weight. I mixed fed both of my DD's, DD2 is 3 months old and has just been diagnosed with a tongue tie which the breastfeeding counsellor thinks DD1 had as well.

I can't tell you how upset I am at having spent 6 months struggling and struggling to feed DD1 - hours upon hours upon hours on the sofa and still having to give her bottles at bedtime as I could never fill her up. Then to go through it all over again with DD2..

And I've had the raised eyebrows from judgey people like you when I've got the bottle out because clearly I just don't give a monkeys about my daughters, and I'm just ignoring what's best for them.

I hope you're not too lonely up on that pedestal of yours. A little empathy goes a long way you know.

Op - shocked at that! Unbelievable.

I never get this "competition" that goes on between breast and formula fed babies. It's up to the individual what's most suitable for her and her baby. End of!

muslimah28 - what is a sound reason for giving up bf pray tell?

i NEVER said those are the reasons why all people FF. i simply said heres some reasons some people FF. i never put it forward as an exclusive list, nor did i say it applies to all mothers who FF.

also, FFing because its soo much easier as a reason is not the same as giving up BFing because its hard. at least you gave it a try. no, what im referring to is the story some may have read in another thread a few weeks back about a mother BFing her baby in a swimming pool and being told by another father 'you want to get him on a bottle, its so much easier'. in the same thread it was descrbed (i think by the OP on that one) how at the school pick up a group of parents were raving at the benefits of FFing, and ease was one of the reasons cited. so clearly there ARE women who FF for the so called ease, whether people want to admit it or not.

as i said above, these are all reasons that have actually been put forward on MN for FFing, they're not ones i made up.

withorwithoutyou it sounds like you really tried and persisted for as long as you could, i have a lot of respect for you for that (not that you probably care about my respect right now).

yes, people who find BFing difficult are probably having problems which need support. its often the lack of support that leads to them giving up, whereas if they could access breastfeeding counsellors they may find that there are solutions to those problems which avoid having to stop BFing.

i don't judge people who formula feed becuase i don't know their reasons for doing so. but my original position still holds, that we have a FF culture in which BF is not even considered by some mothers. i reiterate what i said above, i am NOT anti formula. i am opposed to a culture which does not encourage breastfeeding, which we know if we look at the extensive research, is best.

just one more thing- if you think i'm sitting on a pedestal all happy and pleased with myself and didn't have a struggle then you're wrong. as i said above, i had several extreme postnatal complications which put me in excrutiating pain for about 4 months, unable to stand up for more than 5 minutes, and required surgical intervention 4 times, and i still have mild to moderate pain now.

one person on the 'other' thread i keep referring to (youd think id read it all the amount i refer to it- ive only read 2-3 pages of posts on it) said being proud of yourself for achieving something is not the same as feeling smug or feeling above others.

why are you in such a state about a ff mum.channel your energy into something that really matters.if the mum is ff that is her business,and most certainly not yours. if you have a desire to alter bf rates find out about becoming a bf supporter or supporting bf.but getting shocked at "more proof of how much of a formula feeding culture we have" is a bitty misplaced ire

I am -not-- amazed at the hysteria being whipped up by a few ardent posters.

She said a bit shocked. Why does that phrase annoy you all so much? I see it as a mumsnet-ism when wanting for a better word but too lazy to search for it. Why turn it into 'shocked' with connotations of her being a bit 'woo' for finding it slightly shocking? Maybe she should have said 'unexpected'. Dunno. Rereading what she said, that is what she is implying to me. You are deliberately over-analysing or misinterpreting what she said.

I would have thought back to MN at the tiresomeless threads decrying how bf is forced down women's throats when it seems like in reality the gag reflex in one's throat is long gone because ff has been gagged down everyone's throat for so long.

FWIW I had an inappropriate snicker at the response 'no i just use what i did for all 4 of mine, it can't be the formula.'

no thought of the baby being an individual in this response and yes that maybe this formula wasn't the best for this one. and also very Little Britain.

perhaps op channel her indignation into supporting bf,rather than opining on how a mum feeds her baby.the implied oh my very gosh is a bitty ott.she was feeding a baby,not skinning up a big doobie for it

Well if it helps youve made me feel like shit and be pretty close to tears about the fact I am 'ignoring what is best' for my 2 week old dd :( Thanks for that, just what I needed really.

congratulations on your new baby.feed,love and cherish your baby.you dont have to justify your choices to anyone or be made to feel bad about how you feed

Congratulations on your new baby, theUnmentioned. No you don't have to consider anyone's opinions on how you feed your baby. However, have you read and interpreted what she said in its context?

quote:
but the following reasons i have read on MN for FF to me are ignoring what's best for your baby (and that should be the starting point for making a decision)

-its so much easier
-BM is 'naughty milk' as quoted by one MIL, link to the over sexualisation of breasts
-i want to know how much milk my baby is taking
-BFing takes too long
end quote

She is not writing this thread about your particular circumstance so it is not to be taken personally by the casual reader on here. To with hold her opinions because she may offend someone out there is also unreasonable.

It is a good idea to not continue to read a thread or not even open them if by the title of the thread we may end up feeling over-sensitive about the topic.

scottishmummy, I think the shock is at the automatic assumption that a baby is ff, the other mum didn't ask.

ff mum shouldn't have to hide threads because of insensitive posts.perhaps some should think the impact of verbose posting on feeding.It is an emotive topic.would you tell a bf mum to ignore topics she found upsetting

Yes I would scottishmummy. I did not tell her to hide threads. I said to refrain from reading them if they are upsetting her.

I do so myself when I know something will adversely affect me emotionally. I cannot control what other people write. But I can control what I read.

Verbose and insensitive is just the obvious of what I may not want to read or take as a reflection of myself.

For me in the past, positive, joyous birth stories were unbearably sad because I had such a shit time the first time. I could not turn around and tell women not to share them because it may affect someone with PTSD negatively, could I. I had to deal with it and not take it personally or avoid them.

I surely have as much right as anyone to post my feelings though.

FWIW I think the fact that bf takes too long is a valid reason, especially when you have other kids at home to see to. It was certainly a consideration for me - I did start off excl bf but gave up due to blood loss making me beyond tired and therefore i didnt feel up to the length of time it was taking. I bf ds (3) until he was 9m, Im not being lazy, Im devastated about the turn of events and am still partially bf.

oh and pray tell how could i tell from the thread title what this was about? am i supposed to be psychic or just read and then not be alllowed to post my thoughts?