OK, I get BF, but am totally fucked off with the smugness

[FunnysInTheGarden]

Most of us are failed BF, but the tone on here recently has really pissed me off. We generally FF? Non? So why the smug shit and the passive aggressiveness towards those who have to/chose to FF?

So tempted to name names, but I won't.

Just stop being so smug and holier than thou please, some people

Oh, and before the introduction of the evil formula (which I introduced because really, I just couldn't be bothered with the food intake of my child, and felt like putting my own needs first ), our "bonding" experience in the 15, sometimes 20 feeds we had a day, lasting 20-45 minutes each at 20 weeks was my baby pulling off to shout in frustration at my boob and moan ever, ever so loudly at a pitch I just can't describe. There were times when we would both cry...

After the introduction of the evil formula, I could feed a relaxed baby who could actually look at me, who would pull my finger down along his cheek and smile in blissful contentment.

No comparison...

At ten months, when I feed him now, he wraps his chubby little fingers around my breast and hugs me with his other hand. At six months, we had nothing even approximating a cuddle..

I am so grateful for formula, with all its cement-like characteristics.

Arses - that seems to be the problem - if you go on about how truly truly wonderful Breast Milk is - and let's face it - Breast Milk is amazing stuff then you may somehow make women for FF feel bad? Or you may make women who are BF but having a bad time feel bad, or women who are mixed feeding feel bad?

When really it is the support for new mums that is needed.

Part of this support is education, and milk banks.

Sparkly - but is it not obvious that people are not informed. Look at some of the examples on this thread - where a prem baby was given stay down formula on the advice of Health Professionals??

And who on here would judge you at all Arses?

I am so sorry that you had such a tough time of it.

As I recall the thread the concern was raised against the makers of formula.

Great posts arses. Sounds like you had a hellish time of it. People really do underestimate the harm that the struggle to breastfeed can do to the developing relationship between mum and baby.

I so wish that formula would be recognised for what it can and should be, and that is a nutritional aid/supplement to help a baby who is struggling to breastfeed get enough to eat, or to give an exhausted mother some respite.

I get so cross at those who say that giving any formula is the inevitable start of a slippery slope to the end of breastfeeding. For so many of us the real life choice is to stop breastfeeding - end of - or use a little formula to help us to continue. Those who would try to deny us that choice, or make us feel so damned guilty, may inadvertently be hastening the end of breastfeeding for many many mothers and their babies.

well said arses and gaelicsheep. I'm another combo feeder due to supply issues and agree wholeheartedly with both the content and the tone of your posts.

" People really do underestimate the harm that the struggle to breastfeed can do to the developing relationship between mum and baby".

No they don't! What evidence do you base that on? Is there one voice on this thread arguing that breastfeeding is always a wonderful, bonding experience? No. Staw man arguement.

"I so wish that formula would be recognised for what it can and should be, and that is a nutritional aid/supplement to help a baby who is struggling to breastfeed get enough to eat, or to give an exhausted mother some respite".

Everybody knows there are situations where formula can help a mother continue breastfeeding, but it's unfair and dishonest not to ALSO make the possible disadvantages and risks clear, so that she can make a fully informed choice as to whether she wants to exclusively breastfeed or mixed feed.

"I get so cross at those who say that giving any formula is the inevitable start of a slippery slope to the end of breastfeeding".

Why cross? All the EVIDENCE shows that for many women introducing formula while breastfeeding is being established DOES complicated breastfeeding and bring it to a premature end. You can dislike that fact as much as you like and argue that it doesn't apply to you - but the truth is it does apply to many other people. Your particular experience is not proof that introducing formula is NEVER, or RARELY problematic for breastfeeding.

And by the way - only a tiny, tiny, tiny number of babies have no formula in the first year (probably less than 5%) so I really don't know why you're getting so flipping animated about the supposed downer on mixed feeding. It obviously makes no difference to the vast majority of women who will do it no matter what. The real problem isn't that not enough women are mixed feeding. The problem is that the vast majority of women who WANT to exclusively breastfeed, and for whom it's perfectly possible for them to do so, are not being helped to realise their wishes because of poor support and the growing chorus of voices like yours rubbishing the benefits of bothering with exclusive breastfeeding.

"Those who would try to deny us that choice, or make us feel so damned guilty"

Just to be clear - who would like to 'deny you the choice' to mixed feed? Are you aware of anyone arguing that breastfeeding mothers shouldn't be 'allowed' to use formula? Would you like to say who? Anyone on this thread? Someone that you know? Or are we talking about a mythical member of the 'brestapo' here?

As for making you feel guilty - I assume you're talking about health professionals making sure that mothers who are considering mixed feeding are making a fully informed choice, ie they tell them about the possible risks and disadvantages of introducing formula into the breastfeeding relationship? Are you making a case that they shouldn't actually do this? Do you think that's ethical? What do you see as the primary role of the health professional? To validate all the mothers' parenting choices, even when she thinks they've been made in ignorance of important issues that might affect the mother and her baby in the short or long term. Or to help the mother make a properly informed choice and then to support her in that choice?

"Why cross? All the EVIDENCE shows that for many women introducing formula while breastfeeding is being established DOES complicated breastfeeding and bring it to a premature end. You can dislike that fact as much as you like and argue that it doesn't apply to you - but the truth is it does apply to many other people. Your particular experience is not proof that introducing formula is NEVER, or RARELY problematic for breastfeeding."

Yes, but what about when breastfeeding itself isn't working? Despite all available guidance being followed e.g. I had weekly visits from the lactation consultant and a visit from a midwife and/or midwife assistant every second day for the first six weeks of my son's life, all of whom followed WHO guidance. I also had a mother who breastfed against a chorus of damnation in the 70's and an entire family of women who bf'd behind me. I consulted with a world-renowned breastfeeding expert at a university.. And still it didn't work.

There has got to be more than piecemeal recognition that some babies really do need formula, no matter how hard their mothers try or how much they want to exclusively breastfeed.

Quoting evidence is fine, and I think there should be continuing and ongoing research on helping women bf but evidence doesn't, and can't, cover the precise individual circumstances of every woman and child. And though I have no issue with the 'breast is best' message, I do have a problem with women who say that other women didn't "try hard enough" or introduced a bottle of formula because "they obviously just didn't want to breastfeed really" (both of which I have had said to me by people who were unaware of my own struggles but assumed I would agree because they saw me bfing).

What I mean by hard work is that there are many moments where I have thought about throwing in the towel and stopping bf..but I haven't because I know its whats best for me and my baby.
I have no problem with mothers who ff, I understand for various reasons it can be the right choice. But this thread is full of women criticising other mothers just because they are proud of themselves for bf..so what? Why don't they have a right to feel that way?

"There has got to be more than piecemeal recognition that some babies really do need formula, no matter how hard their mothers try or how much they want to exclusively breastfeed."

THERE IS recognition that some babies do need formula. UNICEF Baby Friendly guidelines are that approximately 10% of breastfed babies may benefit from some supplementation of breastfeeding! The vast, vast, vast majority of health professionals supporting breastfeeding mothers are encouraging massively higher rates of supplementation than this. In my area last year over 50% of breastfed babies were receiving formula supplements within 24 hours of birth! And this isn't an uncommon situation.

So that's the reality - far, far more breastfed babies being supplemented than need to be. You have to look at your experience within that context!

"I do have a problem with women who say that other women didn't "try hard enough" or introduced a bottle of formula because "they obviously just didn't want to breastfeed really"

Well - I'd agree with you that those comments are insensitive. But you're taking your experience of insensitive and perhaps inept 'support' and reaching a distorted conclusion about wider breastfeeding issues.

The real concern isn't that mums are being wrongly stopped or discouraged from mixed feeding; the reality is that the majority babies in the UK who are breastfed are already receiving unnecessary formula supplements and that this is contributing to large numbers of women stopping breastfeeding before they'd intended to.

"but evidence doesn't, and can't, cover the precise individual circumstances of every woman and child".

No, and the experienced and skilled health professionals involved in supporting new mothers know this and are flexible and responsive in their approach.

The problem isn't that HPs are handing out too much evidence based advice. The problem is that there are too many health professionals who are not skilled and experienced in supporting breastfeeding working with new mothers.

Why can't someone who bf feel a sense of pride? If in other situations you set yourself a goal and work towards it and succeed you're allowed to pat yourself on the back. If that's ok, for example say if trying to lose weight or regarding cooking fresh food every day then why not re breastfeeding? There are smug people in every regard but somehow bf is different. Why? Do you get upset and feel guilty because of other things you aren't doing perfectly? A mother's place is in the wrong and people judge us all the time. We need to grow a thicker skin. If you're happy you've done the best for your child then sod everyone else - all the hcps and judgey pants. At the risk of going all pop psychology - no one can make you feel guilty. You're allowing that to happen yourselves.
But WTF do I know? I will recount my experience which have some relevance. I had a disastrous bf relationship first time with DS. My supply failed, he became ill so he became ff. I can see now how different it might have been with better hcps, support and if I'd known what to expect. All the things that a less ff focused culture might bring. But no matter - I was devestated and developed PND as a direct result. I was angry, rationalised that bf was no big deal, convinced myself the research was flawed, hated being around bf mums, felt sick when I read about bf, was so angry with the bf mafia and can still remember one mum who recounted all her struggles which to me was a direct attack on me for not trying hard enough. It wasn't actually. Just her telling her story. 3 years on I had DD1. I really didn't want to bf but my family has severe asthma and eczema and DH's has diabetes so I felt I had to try.

Dd1 was not a demanding baby and I had great support from midwives and I learned about bf and I fed her until she was 14 months. Dd2 is 18 weeks now and ebf. She is very demanding but knowing I can feed a baby means I am able to do it iyswim.

I can see both sides to some extent but my self loathing and guilt about not bf DS came from me and my depression and was not the fault of bf mums.

Lots of comments here about hcps make me sad. There is no training basically and various stupid ideas are perpetuated. With proper training a hcp would be able to point out the pros and cons of mixed feeding and help women decide what is right for their baby. As it is mums are mostly on our own. In fact we should all pat ourselves on the back for getting through the day.

Good post mollycuddles.

Arses, when you say "I despise women who sneer at those who ff", I'm wondering whether you've ever challenged anyone who said something hurtful to you in r/l? I suspect that if you turned around and said 'Actually I mixed feed because I've found breastfeeding to be a real struggle and my son didn't thrive on my milk alone, no matter what I did' you'd get an apologetic, understanding and sympathetic response. Is it really better to read so much intentional cruelty into people's thoughtless comments? People don't think that formula is 'evil', really they don't. And people who think that formula fed babies are disadvantaged in health terms generally know that this is only the case when they are comparing bottle feeding with functional breastfeeding, and not where there are major issues with supply and with a breastfed baby's failure to thrive. Honestly.

It's not a good thing to polarise people's attitudes on this issue - creates an unhelpful and hurtful dynamic.

Your posts are full of anger andof assumptions about people's beliefs and attitudes. Mums are really generally pretty nice people and sympathetic to the problems other mothers have with their babies. There's no need to go around 'despising' people in the way you're doing. If we hurt one another with our attitudes and comments it's generally completely unintentional, and the best way of dealing with it is to be frank about our experiences and our feelings.

Okay, tittybangbang.. here is my 'assumption':

Antenatal group mother1 (when sole ff mum has left lunch to go to toilet)

"I didn't want to say anything while AGM2 was here, but don't you think that really she could have tried a bit harder? I mean, she says he was very hungry but she put him on the bottle at the first sign of trouble didn't she?"

AGM3: "yeah, as if we didn't have hungry babies!"

AGM4: "Personally, I think that formula should only be available on prescription, then you'd have fewer people just giving up at the first hurdle. Don't people realise how damaging it is to a baby?".

Yes, I really felt like wading in and sharing my experience so that I could get an "apologetic, understanding and sympathetic response". .

I'm not in the business of assuming. This is fairly blatant, wouldn't you say? And backhanded, not just 'thoughtless' eg bitchy?

I'm not spending time with these people now but it's ridiculous to assume that everyone who bf's is a reasonable, decent, humane person (anymore than anyone who does anything is). Of course there are smug bitches, and hell yeah, I despise their smug bitchy ways.

Ah, formula on prescription, that old chesnut. Just what the NHS needs for gawds sake. Arses, it wasn't worth wading in - they are obviously fairly moronic.

Yes, and said Antenatal bottlefeeding mother gave up breastfeeding at 6 months - yet was whispered about even at the last meet up: "Oh, poor AGM2, she's really missing out on this bonding experience isn't she?".

As I said, I no longer hang about with these folk.

These sort of witches are best avoided. If they weren't crowing about bf it'd be something else and soon will be. Competitive weaning, competitive parenting, their dcs mobilising and language skills, nursery, schooling ad nauseam. Good you found out when you did that they're not your sort of people. It's them using bf as part of their ridiculous posturing. Take no notice.

I'm sure there are very few people here who've never said something thoughtless and ignorant that has hurt someone's feelings. Problem is that it's only when it's to do with our mothering that it seems to result in the sort of moral condemnation that's otherwise usually reserved for child-abusers and violent racists.

Have to say, I must be mixing with a lot nicer people than you. I've never heard anyone say anything remotely like that - and I've been hanging around new mothers for quite a few years.

"Have to say, I must be mixing with a lot nicer people than you. I've never heard anyone say anything remotely like that - and I've been hanging around new mothers for quite a few years."

And your point here is....? It's the luck of the draw who you share an antenatal class with. Some people make friends for life, others meet people they don't have much in common with. "New mothers" are not a homogenous social grouping, y'know.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to dismiss my feelings about my own experiences with (I have to say) fairly patronising statements about moral condemnation and understanding that some people don't think before they speak.

I appreciate your faith in humanity, I do, but I find it reductive to assume that motherhood confers a particular sort of all-embracing, loving, understanding reasonableness. I really don't believe it does: people can and do say hurtful things with the intention of hurting, always have and always will. Have you been on AIBU recently?! Mothers are no more generally nice than men are or bus conductors or cleaners, nor are they any less individual.

arses would just like to say well done for standing up to the smug giterry that can be other mothers. No one really knows why other folk start to FF, but I have to say that with the odd exception, not one person on here has done anything to persuade me that some BF mothers at the least are smug, holier then thou and feel we should all be in their debt because they have managed to BF.

I am not about to explain myself, but have to say that my last BF experience was a very good one with DS2. I just decided to stop, for my own reasons.

For your information, tittybangbang, I am now exclusively breastfeeding. That was always my aim, and it was only possible for us to achieve that by using a small amount of formula during the first three months. Incidentally I'm using nipple shields as well (another supposedly bad thing) without any problems. If I had allowed myself to take to heart everything that is written about mixed feeding (and nipple shields) I would more than likely not have perservered for as long as I did and I'd be fully bottle feeding by now.

and incidentally formula on prescription........what better way to make mother who already feel a bit shit feel even shitter...............Marvellous idea I say

I can't believe I used to subscribe to that particular pov. Not to make ff mothers feel shit, but because when I was forced to ff DS I really resented the amount I was having to shell out for the stuff. Now I've completely changed my opinion. I gave bottles during the night to DD for 3 months because I was so exhausted I just couldn't deal with the constant struggle, pain and hour long feeds. I dare say formula on precription would have been denied to me as it wasn't strictly medically necessary. And yet formula was the saviour of breastfeeding for me - god only knows what a wreck I'd have been without it. There is no way I am rubbishing exclusive breastfeeding, clearly. But the purist's way is not the only way to achieve it.

Just another experience about mix feeding. My sis struggled in hospital with DC1 Everyone told her latch was fine but DC was sucking her boobs so hard and screaming in hunger and took first bottle of FF like a msn given water in the desert. DC1 came out of hospital fully FF as there was no support to help her BF and sis assumed she did not have enough milk. By the time she had DC2 I had had my own DC and knew a bit more about BFing. I told sis don't worry
if you have to give a bit of FF it doesn't mean you can't still BF. DC2 was born by EMCS as breech and started to develop jaundice. She was advised that DC eould take longer to recover from jaundice on BM. She asked about expressing so she could mix feed- give him FF to help get over jaundice the go on to BF- and was told that she had to choose one method or other as FF strips good flora of BM from gut! Talk about using something out of context! I've since read about this "virginial gut" theory and whilst it may have some truth surely it's better to not have a virginial gut and still be BF than say right you've spoilt it bow by giving a bottle or 2 of FF there's no point in BFing- ( because of course there's no other benefits to BFing ).

It's this kind of sh1t advice that is stopping so many mums fail at the first hurdle through no fault of their own. When you first have a baby you are generally knackered and probably most women don't have the confidence to challenge such crap advice particularly if it is first DC or they have had bad experience with previous DC. If women got the help and support to BF right from the start More women would do it and it would be come culturally the norm.

If I hadn't been mix feeding DC2 I wouldn't be BFing at all. But some of the purest sh1t that comes out has stopped me seeking as much help as I might have. Went to BF support group didn't tell the that DC 2 had already had some bottles. Peer supporter thinks she knows me and my views because I went there regulary with DC1 who was ebf. She tells me that her daughter is in the nursery attached to the children's centre and when playing in the home corner and told her caters that babies don't get milk from bottles they get it from their mummies. So she delighted in telling me they had removed the doll's bottles and put up BF awareness posters! WTF! I'm proBF but what next should we encourage little girls to lift their tops when playing with dolls and what if little boys want to play? PS asked me to do a diary of feeding over next week to help me, for one reason or another DC had quite a few bottles in that diary but because her attitude I didn't go back and so didn't get the help and am not BFing as much as I'd like but am struggling on regardless.

BFing is bloody hard and those who've managed to perservere deserve to feel a sense of pride in their achievement but do not have the right to judge any other mum that has not managed to go as long or exclusively as we are all different as are our DCs and is the help and support we get.

"For your information, tittybangbang, I am now exclusively breastfeeding".

Yes, and? You're saying that to me in a confrontational way as though to prove some sort of point to me, and I'm wondering - what?

"Incidentally I'm using nipple shields as well (another supposedly bad thing)"

A 'bad thing'? Nipple shields help some people but can make breastfeeding much more difficult in other circumstances. That's not news! It's right that women should be told to be cautious about using them because they do often lead to problems. That's not the same as saying 'they're a bad thing'. Again, you seem to be trying to polarise this issue, talking in absolutes to make some sort of moral point.