GC White women comparing being transgender to someone white claiming to be black

[NewNameNigel]

Does anyone else find this incredibly offensive?
Race and sex are so incredibly different!

It’s also a question of priorities. I feel racism does impact my life in a far more pervasive way than gender neutral spaces have. For you, that might be hard to believe. However, it means that I will not engage with anything that I feel is harmful to poc. There were women who felt it was appropriate to interrupt BLM marches over this. The minimisation of poc issues is a clear theme here and to me this is more of a problem than self identification, much as the latter doesn’t exactly thrill me.

Holy SHIT that’s offensive.

@Ardith are all these men not also descended from women? 🤣

I'd be interested to know what you consider to be extreme about GC views and whether your ideas about what being GC is are based on. There is a lot of misinformation about what it means to be GC, largely spread by male supremacist TRAs as part of their anti-women propaganda. What you describe your views to be are wholeheartedly GC.

Of course you've "suddenly realised" that you're on BMN after you've happily said your piece. Not new.

I have to say that I've found your posts (as well as some other posts on here towards Black women) patronising, condescending, arrogant, gaslighty and just plain nasty in its undertone. This is typical of what Black women face when dealing with (other) feminists who aren't Black.

"Darling"?? How infantilising in its sarcasm, Queen Camilla. I can imagine the proverbial smoke-out-of-ears if someone said this to a poster on the main board, especially the Sex and Gender board, not to mention the pile on they'd receive from fellow women in solidarity.

In my opinion, the OP has maintained an air of civility and graciously responded to most (if not all) posters so far, including you, even after your and others' posts increased in their put-down manner, but I see that she and other Black women have already been accused of the typical 'crime' always levelled at Black women when they don't just shut up and put up like other women want them to.

The irony is unmistakable and history always repeats itself.

OP (and others) I'd like to echo Hollyhead's post above, I have learnt that the parallel with 'trans race' can be and has been misinterpreted. Also on this thread I have seen various posters dismissing and ignoring black women's concerns. I can quite understand that this may not seem the most urgent fight for women facing racism, but that's OK we don't all have to have the same priorities.

Please though, don't believe the slurs that GC women are far-right/religious conservatives. All the GC feminists I know in RL are left wing/anti-racist with backgrounds in trade unions, environment, peace, development, way back to the miners strike. This is in the UK, maybe different elsewhere.

Thanks all for engaging with us on this issue

While thisis a blackmumsnetters board, it is discussing GC white feminists so women in that category do have a right to an opinion

Do you share the same view about the people you discuss on the sex and gender forum? Or would they be invading your space if they behaved exactly as you have towards a person you agree with?

I see that she and other Black women have already been accused of the typical 'crime' always levelled at Black women when they don't just shut up and put up like other women want them to

I think sometimes white people get cognitive dissonance because they genuinely do not actively wish to harm or upset black people and really do not think of themselves as racist. So when a behaviour that they engage in is pointed out to be harmful, racist etc they become defensive and look for ways to defend it so they don't have to examine their own behaviour. When black people don't back down they resort to the using the "angry black woman looking to be offended" racist troupe because it's so ingrained. All the while maintaining their own self image of someone who isn't a racist.

Last thing is to say although I do feel trans rights activists also inappropriately co opt black narratives and poc trans issues can be pushed to the side as a group, they at least attempt to be mindful of these issues. Mainstream and GC feminism have been failing on this front for years. Personally, it builds enough goodwill that I’m not going to actively go out of my way to make life harder for transpeople even though I do disagree with some of their perspectives.

No one wants to make life harder for trans people - it must be a very distressing situation. All we want is to protect our own hard won rights - you cannot give one group additional rights at the expense of another. And certain elements of the trans rights activists aren't content with any compromise - they want unfettered access to everything, even when that actively harms women and that's not on. And that's the thing to which most GC women object.

@NewNameNigel I don't care who pops up on the feminism board so long as they aren't trolls. The point of a discussion board is to, well, discuss. Some people will agree with me, some won't. All I would expect on that board is for posters to obey the rules of the^ site but beyond that they have as much right to a pov as I do.^

Sorry. Sex and gender board, not feminism. Forgot they are separate now

How do they attempt to be mindful of these issues in ways that GC feminists are not?
Don't forget that TRA have also co-opted LGB issues. Many LGB people are not comfortable with this but it's been made clear that they are not allowed to have their own spaces separate from the "TQ+" as it's seen as discriminatory.

How do they attempt to be mindful of these issues in ways that GC feminists are not?

On this thread alone black women who have stated that comments about race on the sex and gender forum make them feel excluded and unable to participate have been called dishonest. People have responded by listing prominent GC women of colour as if that adddesses the point.

I have never encountered that level of hostility from TRAs.

Sex is a biological characteristic, gender is a social construct.

Ethnicity is a biological characteristic, race is a social construct.

Both race and gender are oppressive systems that are so insipid they frequently go unnoticed by those that benefit from them.

Uh: ethnicity is also a social construct. As is the significance we assign to sex and sex based characteristics. The GC perspective on the trans issue which includes fears that biological men will destroy “womens spaces” is an entirely socially constructed fear—as is the idea of sex segregated spaces. Our biology doesn’t dictate our housing, bathrooms, or anything else. Our cultural and social norms do.

I am, by the way, white .

I will bow out of this thread because the central point “don’t use other people’s Pain/experience for your own benefit in an argument” is being lost in a sea of “but I meant so well” and “please see my tears” white women in mumsnet special pleading.

I think that's pretty offensive @pikkumyy77. Denigrating another person's right to speak is a bullying tactic akin to those used by TRA to shut women up.

Or indeed white people to get black people to shut up about racism.
This thread is an example

This was a conversation between black people on on something and multiple white women have waded in to tell us we are lying about the way we feel about such comments or that actually the comments are fine.

You're talking amongst yourselves about white people though, in a thread which appears in Active conversations. Of course white people are going to join in. And that's not unreasonable - would you not expect to be included in a conversation about you?

You do know why this board was set up right? So black mumsnetters could talk to each other without white people butting in and explaining racism to them. Didn't work though.

My point still stands - you can't start a thread complaining about a group of people and expect them not to have a right of reply.
And when a thread appears in active, lots of people read the OP and reply and don't notice what board it's on until they've already been sucked in.

Right to reply isn't the issue though is it. Its people thinking that right to reply is the same as right to patronise, make racist remarks, accuse black women of being overly emotional/angry, and lecture them on how their thoughts, feelings and opinions are wrong.

Technically you may have the right to do this. Still doesn't mean you aren't a dick if you do it though.

Denigrating another person's right to speak is a bullying tactic akin to those used by TRA to shut women up.

this is such DARVO when the reality is that actually its black posters being bullied to shut up on here.

I didn’t “denigrate” anyone’s “right to speak” —what an absurd thing to say. You are objecting to the poster getting pushback for her opinion. She’s free to say what she likes but she doesn’t get to command respect fir it, and she is not free from criticism if the content of her comments.

Hello everyone,

We just wanted to remind those who may be unaware that the Black Mumsnetters board was established as we became aware that there were common experiences and subjects of a sensitive nature that Black users felt more comfortable discussing in a 'safe' and dedicated environment.

The board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Of course, others are welcome but we would ask them to be respectful at all times and mindful that this is a safe space for Black users and to post with that in mind. Black Mumsnetters are under no obligation to educate, inform or answer questions about race issues.

We will delete posts that might be read as dismissive or aggressive (even if it is low level), and, of course, we will delete anything that looks in any way like racism. Please do hit the report button on anything you'd like us to see and it will be made a priority.

MNHQ

Did you also miss the banner at the top of the page? If so maybe you should pay more attention.

Exactly @Neitheronethingnortheother. So trans activism is the same as racism. But black women discussing racism in feminism are the same as TRAs.

Total DARVO.

Like a PP said, black women are only included in some feminism when it suits that flavour of feminism. It shouldn't be this way.