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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Boonlark · 14/05/2021 20:49

Just want to thank you for this thread. My grandad was black/mixed heritage but I'm white passing. So is my dm, but she had prejudice in her childhood because of how her dad looked and because of her hair. (She used to get called golly etc because of her hair, which is like mine, so she made me blow dry it straight and when I wanted it to be natural, she made me get a perm, so she could tell people it was permed. ☹️ ).

I know that I have white privilege, but because of that privilege (and because dm was ashamed/hurt because of the prejudice around her and wanted to pass) I didn't understand that there was a difference between women's rights, and white feminism. I also realise (thanks to this thread) that being me oblivious to that, is part of me having that white privilege Sad

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 14/05/2021 20:53

The continent of Africa is 80% black, Western Europe 85% white. So the issues of race are different depending on where you are.

And yet as a Black woman who has lived in 2 separate African countries and the UK with majority Black populations, the minority white population was still as oppressive and obtuse about addressing their privilege, colonialism and why 80% of the wealth was in the hands of 5%of the population.

People cite Africa as if it is some Black utopia , forgetting the same issues exist there because of the colonial legacy. But just like Trevor Noah, it's better there in some ways as people are more upfront and honest about their racism than here where people pretend they don't see race and still act on their bias. Rather stab me in the front and look me in the eye than the back.

Peanutbutterandbananatoastie · 14/05/2021 21:05

@Avaynia

I just learned about Black Mumsnet so I’m late to this thread but it’s so on point. I’m American so there are some differences, but no matter where you are, feminism is absolute garbage. It’s so often such a narrow minded point of view that I don’t relate to it at all. The funniest part about it for me is that they understand. In fact, they understand perfectly. There’s endless talk about microaggressions, everyday sexism, and how language shapes culture and needs to be challenged to change attitudes, and how the poor menz can’t experience sexism because the system is designed to benefit them, or how #notallmen is toxic. Yet when it comes to racism, suddenly the goalposts shift. Somehow men can’t experience sexism because Patriarchy but white people can totally experience racism. Or sometimes it’s, “well it’s not systematic racism, but it’s still racism.” Yet casual sexism against men isn’t a thing. Suddenly, “what if a white person is poor or disabled?” is a defense against white privilege but they don’t bring that up as a defense against male privilege. Suddenly, “it’s wrong to paint a whole group of people with one brush.” So #notallwhitepeople. And whenever black women describe their experiences with race no matter how common it is then it’s, “I would say the same thing to a white person/You’re overreacting/That has nothing to do with race.” Gee it sure is crazy how they understand the elements of systematic inequality only when it impacts them, but when it’s another group of people you’re suddenly imagining things or overreacting.

There was a thread a little while ago that got purged about a mother whose son learned the n word in during history in school and used it against his black friend in an argument shortly afterwards just to hurt him. Yet there were people on that thread saying, “he’s not racist. He’s just young and did something stupid.” Or, “a slip of the tongue shouldn’t ruin his life.” Or, “it’s so serious to be accused of racism.” Of course in the, “close your legs your fanny stinks” thread there wasn’t anyone saying his words were a slip of the tongue or it’s dangerous to accuse someone of sexism. Lots of calls for him to be suspended and made an example of for his misogyny, though, and some who thought it was entirely justified that he got punched in the face for what he said.

But see white women are notorious victims. They’re seen as innocent, pure, delicate, (Insert ain’t I a woman speech here), and most importantly without agency. “Oh the evil menz oppress the women and they just had no power.” White women have always had power over minorities. They’ve always had power, they know they have that power, and they know exactly how to use it. It was wielded during slavery, during segregation, and it’s wielded now. That’s how you end up with the Amy Coopers of the world. They know people will see them as innocent and they use it to their advantage. Just like when they start crying when they’re called out for their behavior. It turns them into a victim and makes the person calling them out, often a woman of color, look mean and aggressive. Or when they hijack a conversation to make it all about their feelings and experiences. Absolute manipulation.

And then there’s the trans thing. Oh my god. I do not understand the obsession with the transgender women. I almost don’t even want to bring it up because any excuse to hop on the trans hate train is taken and completely overshadows anything else that’s said. It’s the only thing they’ll talk about to the detriment of everything else. Is there room for conversation about women only spaces, sure, but transgender women being the biggest threat to women in modern times? Really? Transgender women aren’t the reason for the pay gap, which is bigger between white men and women of color by the way. They’re not the reason women are killed daily by their partners. They’re not the reason women are trafficked and sold as prostitutes. They’re not the reason for FGM or child brides. They’re not the reason for nonexistent or shit maternity care/leave. They’re not the reason access to birth control and bodily autonomy is constantly being threatened. They’re not even the reason the rape statistics are so high. That’s all cis men. But a minority amount of a minority group is the biggest threat. Yeah right.

All over the political threads there were women who support Donald Trump just because he’s anti-trans. Where’s all of their pro-woman convictions with that one? Where’s “believe women” with accused marital rapist and domestic abuser Donald Trump? Where’s “women deserve their own spaces” with admitted to walking into the changing rooms of teen girls because he’s the boss and they let him Donald Trump? Where’s “protect girls” with the openly grooming and sexual behavior towards his daughter and accused of raping a child Donald Trump? Where’s “men who use sex workers and porn are rapists” with cheated on his pregnant wife with a porn star Donald Trump? Where’s “women have a right to bodily autonomy” with choosing an anti-abortionist accused sexual predator to sit on the supreme court for life Donald Trump? And that doesn’t even get into the racism, ageism, homophobia, ableism, and attempting to destroy American democracy in the name of his narcissism and white supremacy stuff. So somehow “there’s absolutely nothing to celebrate” about Kamala Harris and they can’t overlook the “bad” of being her pro-trans and recognize she could be beneficial for women and women of color in many other ways, but they can ignore all of the bad about Trump to appreciate the “good” of being anti-trans. And then they’ll bleat on about “Creepy Joe”. God forbid you hold both men accountable for their actions. Nope. Totally willing to throw every aspect of feminism under the bus just to hate trans people. Okay then.

It’s like when people say we can’t allow immigrants because what about the homeless population we need to take care of. And then they vote for slashing VA benefits, social programs, and encourage hostile architecture and criminalizing homelessness. They don’t actually care about the homeless, they just want an excuse to hate immigrants.

Yet despite all of this we’re always expected to turn up and be their work horses in the name of womanhood and solidarity while they actively invalidate our issues and take our words and attack us with them i.e. wokeville. Or co-opt our struggles and pain to elevate their complaint in exchange for minimizing ours. BLM is demonized but #justiceforSarah. Or I don’t see countless threads about the black maternal death rate, for example. Lots of threads about Meghan being smug though. And they have the nerve to do things like opt out of the woman’s march because it wanted to focus on the voices of women of color but we’re supposed to turn up when they’re the only ones talking. But bringing up race challenges their status as perpetual victim. If they acknowledge race as an element to sexism, suddenly they become the oppressors just like the evil men they’re fighting. So they ignore it instead or villainize us as divisive for wanting to include all women instead of just white women. Wanting to close the gap between white women and white men is not the same as wanting women to be equal to men. From what I’ve seen, more often than not, a white woman’s feminism is the former not the latter. And it shows.

I also hate when they apologize for being white. Just like I hate it when men apologizing on behalf of men. It always comes across as, I don’t know, selfish? Insincere? You don’t need to apologize for being white or on behalf of white people. It’s performative. If you actually care about all women, then what you need to do is learn how and when to listen, hold yourselves to the same equality standards you expect of men and hold other white women to those standards too. There’s nothing wrong with being white, but as white person you do have privilege just like men do. If someone showed up to the ER with a cut on their hand people would find it absolutely absurd if the doctor treated it before a gunshot wound. But that’s how white feminism works. Well, more like they’re doctors who only treat hand wounds because they’re more important than anything else. Gunshot wounds have to treat themselves because their problems are none of the doctor’s concern. Or something.

Anyway, bless anyone who read this very long and controversial rant. All of that to say I agree with you, OP, haha.

Wow this is brilliant, a lot but brilliant Grin
Thewinterofdiscontent · 14/05/2021 21:31

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt

The continent of Africa is 80% black, Western Europe 85% white. So the issues of race are different depending on where you are.

And yet as a Black woman who has lived in 2 separate African countries and the UK with majority Black populations, the minority white population was still as oppressive and obtuse about addressing their privilege, colonialism and why 80% of the wealth was in the hands of 5%of the population.

People cite Africa as if it is some Black utopia , forgetting the same issues exist there because of the colonial legacy. But just like Trevor Noah, it's better there in some ways as people are more upfront and honest about their racism than here where people pretend they don't see race and still act on their bias. Rather stab me in the front and look me in the eye than the back.

Who is the white population is doing the oppressing. I get women are part of the regime but much actual power have white women got ?
RedMarauder · 15/05/2021 11:15

A lot in female dominated spheres including healthcare and education.

Reports pointing out there is a massive disparity in which racial groups hold senior positions in the NHS like this -www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/workforce-race-inequalities-inclusion-nhs?utm_source=twitter&utm_term=thekingsfund&utm_medium=social

could probably be linked to outcomes like this -
www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/jan/15/black-women-in-the-uk-four-times-more-likely-to-die-in-pregnancy-or-childbirth

However the NHS as a body can't be bothered to find out the link.

I could dig out another report to point that last comment out but as you are only here to deny black and brown women's lived experiences, and claim victim hood for yourself I can't be bothered.

KevinTheGoat · 15/05/2021 11:40

If you won't listen to black women, perhaps you'll listen to a white one. Stop hijacking this thread and trying to start arguments. You want to debate how much power white women have in SA, go start a thread in FWR.

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 07/06/2021 11:48

This is disgusting coming from Julie Burchill calling a 2 day old baby "it" and bringing up a dead Black man unfairly killed as a more fitting person for a baby to be named after than her own grandmothers. Why? Because the baby has some Black heritage? And then people wonder why Black women don't want anything to do with a movement where a woman like this is lauded and upheld. She recently bullied another WOC too.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman -  am I alone?
I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman -  am I alone?
Maggiethecat · 07/06/2021 13:03

Please don’t give any of it oxygen.

I will smile today thinking of the joy the parents will be feeling and the love with which this baby girl will be surrounded.

C130 · 07/06/2021 14:08

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt

This is disgusting coming from Julie Burchill calling a 2 day old baby "it" and bringing up a dead Black man unfairly killed as a more fitting person for a baby to be named after than her own grandmothers. Why? Because the baby has some Black heritage? And then people wonder why Black women don't want anything to do with a movement where a woman like this is lauded and upheld. She recently bullied another WOC too.
What a sick thing to do. That women is just a nasty racist. I agree with Maggiethecat post. Hopefully the happy couple can get on with bringing up their children shielded from the worse of strangers racist hate and jealousy.
MolyHolyGuacamole · 07/06/2021 14:27

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt

This is disgusting coming from Julie Burchill calling a 2 day old baby "it" and bringing up a dead Black man unfairly killed as a more fitting person for a baby to be named after than her own grandmothers. Why? Because the baby has some Black heritage? And then people wonder why Black women don't want anything to do with a movement where a woman like this is lauded and upheld. She recently bullied another WOC too.
Oh wow, I'd never heard of her until a couple days ago when there was a whole thread on here with women WORSHIPPING her. Honestly Mumsnet disgusts me so much sometimes
DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 07/06/2021 15:21

Yes @Maggiethecat I won't pay it any mind. I kept it away from my thread of positive well wishes and brought it here as she is lauded as a "progressive" feminist here on MN. Anyway onto better things

Jakarta · 07/06/2021 17:22

People still worshipping Julie Burchill on MN today, sigh

Also the other lady (Toch) was a family law barrister… disappointed but not surprised

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 07/06/2021 17:35

That's beyond gross

Starseeking · 08/06/2021 04:59

@Jakarta

People still worshipping Julie Burchill on MN today, sigh

Also the other lady (Toch) was a family law barrister… disappointed but not surprised

Apparently Toch has been suspended from the organisation she founded by her Board of Directors. Every cloud and all that.

www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/uk-lawyer-suspended-unacceptable-tweet-24268825

MolyHolyGuacamole · 08/06/2021 20:56

@Starseeking this is great news

KevinTheGoat · 09/06/2021 15:12

@Maggiethecat

Please don’t give any of it oxygen.

I will smile today thinking of the joy the parents will be feeling and the love with which this baby girl will be surrounded.

This. Meghan and Harry needn't worry what some bitter old white columnist who's increasingly desperate for attention thinks. And there's nothing wrong with naming a baby after your gran.
RedMarauder · 09/06/2021 15:26

@KevinTheGoat there is if she wasn't consulted but merely told apparently. Hmm

Avaynia · 12/06/2021 20:04

They can name their child anything they want. Isn’t that the usual advice on here?

Starseeking · 15/06/2021 07:32

This one has also been sacked, yet she still keeps going:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9686037/JULIE-BURCHILL-reveals-wont-silenced.html

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 15/06/2021 08:01

Still minimising her racism and Islamophobia I see. Her victims are women of colour and somehow she is a feminist icon and then people still have the audacity to say WOC are the problem when they call out feminism for its racism

Karwomannghia · 15/06/2021 08:14

Totally agree OP thanks for pointing this out because it’s easy to read the denials and minimising and think oh I was just over thinking it.
As for M and H not caring what someone else thinks, a) yes they do, they care about these things evidently and b) we should all care, they were disgusting comments.

KevinTheGoat · 16/06/2021 10:34

Julie Burchill is the epitome of everything wrong with white feminism. She's immensely shitty to both Asians and black women, and she's surprisingly homophobic too, even though she claims she loves lesbians (and don't get me started on the way she treats Jews and how we're nothing more than pets to her). But she hates trans people, so she's AOK with FWR.

I don't agree with Ash Sarkar on everything but in no way did she deserve the treatment Burchill and her fan club gave her. I mean, a woman whose own son committed suicide liking posts telling Sarkar to kill herself. She's beyond pathetic.

PhilSwagielka · 25/06/2021 11:56

The fact that there is a pro-GB News thread in the Feminism forum, and that people who've expressed reservations about it and the constant flag worshipping are being called 'intolerant', shows what an utter joke feminism on MN is. It's yet another example of white feminists throwing their lot in with conservative men purely because they're anti-trans. There are reasons why some of us might be nervous about shows with a very right-wing/patriotic bent.

Avaynia · 26/06/2021 15:57

Being anti-trans is the only thing they care about. And they are anti-trans, not pro-women’s rights, as they love to insist. Sacrificing all non-white, disabled, poor women’s protections and rights is not fighting for all women. The concept that different groups of women need different things does not register to them because they only care about themselves and what impacts them. Yet somehow we the divisive ones for caring about the issues that impact us. Or we’re the handmaidens betraying all women when they’re the ones sacrificing everything to the trans issue. (But don’t call anyone a Karen or a Terf. Those are slurs. Apparently.) And yet I bet they’d bitch up a storm if the politicians they actively support and vote for turn around and take away their precious maternity leave or abortion access. Like the people who were saved by Obamacare and voted for the politicians who wanted to take it away only to complain they’ll die without it. So consumed by their hatred of one thing that they’re incapable of even protecting themselves. Not to mention they don’t want to lose their privilege any more than men do. But when men do it, they’re bastards. White women are incapable of having privilege, according to them, because they’re a minority of a majority and have no real power. And yet I never see them say the minority mens groups are excluded from privilege. They’re such hypocrites.

phoenixrosehere · 27/06/2021 10:29

@Avaynia

This. How am I as a person of colour supposed to care and be up in arms about the word and meaning behind “woman” and “trans issues” when for centuries non-white women were not seen as women but also seen as sub-human and lesser than dogs and still are.