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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:10

I originally jumped in to comment on use of ‘woke’ and why some women on FWR use it in a less than complimentary manner. I can’t speak for others, but I think it refers to (at least I know when I use ‘woke’ with an eye roll it refers to) the hypocrisy of the ‘acceptable’ face of equality and diversity. Usually but not exclusively white people who will virtual signal on every human right going and jump on whatever the latest ‘cause to support if you want to be seen to be a good human being’, but will happily throw women under the bus at every opportunity.

Well I would respectfully ask you to unjump from this use, because black people started the word to mean alert to social injustice, usually racism, so it is extremely insulting when you use it as an insult. You have co-opted a word we chose for ourselves and now use it as an insult. Can you see why we see you as against us?

Virtue signalling is another pooh phrase that needs to go in the bin. Oh to have the privilege to so-called 'virtue signal'. Every effort we make is because it needs to be made, not just because we're eating quinoa while trying to adopt impoverished orphans to look good on Insta🙄

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:15

I never saw it as co-opting the word ‘woke’, but I can see your point.

We’ll have to disagree on ‘virtual signalling’. I see it everywhere I go. Social media has peaked it it. So easy to put some worthy statement on Twitter to look good in front of your mates, when you actually don’t know anything about the cause you support or really give a shite about it.

ProseccoSt · 22/03/2021 21:17

It’s virtue signalling, not virtual signalling.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:17

Typo.

ProseccoSt · 22/03/2021 21:19

Ah right, you made the same typo in both your posts, so i assumed you didn’t know.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:20

It’s autocorrect on my phone. Not being funny.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:21

@OutsideTheWhiteHouse

I never saw it as co-opting the word ‘woke’, but I can see your point.

We’ll have to disagree on ‘virtual signalling’. I see it everywhere I go. Social media has peaked it it. So easy to put some worthy statement on Twitter to look good in front of your mates, when you actually don’t know anything about the cause you support or really give a shite about it.

Good for you for having the privilege to see it as 'virtue signalling'. It is used as an insult now for anyone who speaks up about minority issues. Used to shut down any debate. But go on and use it if it gives you a chuckle. I guess it's a trade off between laughing at your lefty mates versus potentially harming the cause of someone who is actually trying to effect change. Emboldening the xenophobes. If you feel it's worth it then crack on. All for the use of a word.
Puffalicious · 22/03/2021 21:24

@OutsideTheWhiteHouse

White woman here, just reading through the whole thread and finding it really interesting.

I’m definitely a feminist. From a working class Irish background, but probably qualify as a middle class liberal leftie white professional these days Grin.

I think in general people centre the fight they’re forced to engage with every day. For black women, that may be racism. For white women, who have white privilege, they may focus more on structural sexism / the patriarchy. It’s human nature, I guess.

I love the FWR boards on MN. In the truest sense of the word, I got ‘woke’ to what was going on with regards to trans rights and the erasure-by-stealth of the protected characteristic of sex and I just cannot un-see it now or disengage with this particular fight. I care deeply about all women’s rights, though, and I want to know what black women need from white feminists so that we can be true allies.

Anyway, sorry for waffling on! I originally jumped in to comment on use of ‘woke’ and why some women on FWR use it in a less than complimentary manner. I can’t speak for others, but I think it refers to (at least I know when I use ‘woke’ with an eye roll it refers to) the hypocrisy of the ‘acceptable’ face of equality and diversity. Usually but not exclusively white people who will virtual signal on every human right going and jump on whatever the latest ‘cause to support if you want to be seen to be a good human being’, but will happily throw women under the bus at every opportunity. There’s some real cognitive dissonance going on with the women who do this and just straight up old fashioned misogyny with the men. It certainly doesn’t mean I agree with right wing Americans or God forbid Laurence Fox. #IBelieveMeghan

Wink

I agree with every word. Scottish/ Irish very working class background (Glasgow) so I know what marginalised feels like. My grandfather was a victim of the ' No Irish, No Blacks. No Dogs' when he arrived as a docker. I worked my fingers to the bone to get myself through university (I attended the Uni with the biggest percentage of WC students in the UK) but I do still acknowledge my white privilege.

I think women need to stick together- more splinter just means less effectiveness. I don't think all women in history only fancied the vote because they saw black men getting it. That's opinion, not fact, and projection. There have been many brave women who fought for the rights of ALL women- huge swathes of them working class. I, for one, want to empower all the working class girls I teach of all colours. Poverty is a leveller, a leveller of lack of opportunity and power.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:24

I can’t really argue against that, because if I start giving examples of the blatant virtual signalling on the left (and I’m a left winger, so I’m talking about ‘my people’) I’ll derail the thread. I’m happy to modify my language if it offends people to a large extent. But I can’t pretend I don’t see something I see. And believe he, it’s not something I laugh about.

Benelovencd · 22/03/2021 21:26

Woke also has it's origins in AAVE, which makes it even worse when a bunch of white people get together to make fun of it, and how it doesn't even make sense especially language/grammar wise.

Just another way to punch down really.

It's nothing short of disgusting to take a phrase used to describe those aware of racial injustice as an insult. Keep protecting the racists, and trying to make those affected feel small for speaking about their experiences and calling out racism. That is exactly what you are doing when you co-opt our words and vocabulary that we work so hard to put our experiences into words in the work against racism. I'm really tired of white people and white feminists co-opting anti-racism work in situations that are not analogous even if they are genuine human rights issues because it obscures the work done to bring attention to our issues and sometimes derails our movements. Do your own work!

Benelovencd · 22/03/2021 21:30

Yea keep chuckling at our expense. It's lovely to be so privileged you can find minority issues a joke but I'm sure it's all okay because you want all women to stick together Hmm
Let's just love and light away misogynoir and racism.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:30

Point taken re: woke. Language matters. I get it. I’m over on FWR fighting for my right to call myself a ‘woman’ most days.

I am listening and taking stuff on board.

Puffalicious · 22/03/2021 21:33

@Benelovencd

Woke also has it's origins in AAVE, which makes it even worse when a bunch of white people get together to make fun of it, and how it doesn't even make sense especially language/grammar wise.

Just another way to punch down really.

It's nothing short of disgusting to take a phrase used to describe those aware of racial injustice as an insult. Keep protecting the racists, and trying to make those affected feel small for speaking about their experiences and calling out racism. That is exactly what you are doing when you co-opt our words and vocabulary that we work so hard to put our experiences into words in the work against racism. I'm really tired of white people and white feminists co-opting anti-racism work in situations that are not analogous even if they are genuine human rights issues because it obscures the work done to bring attention to our issues and sometimes derails our movements. Do your own work!

I didn't actually realise that it's so 'Them and us'. That's really shocked me. Because I'm white and a feminist would you just dismiss me?
HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:33

@Benelovencd what is AAVE?

Disgusted at the ' I won't use it if it offends you, but don't agree' post. I guess I'm forced to listen to squatters, especially when I reply to them.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:34

....and it definitely isn’t about having a chuckle. I’m usually filled with fucking rage at another woman being ‘cancelled’ because she dared to speak against the agreed liberal left line.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:35

Look, I’m trying to have a respectful conversation and to listen to you and take what you say on board. But I don’t want to fill this thread with my posts, so I’ll leave it there.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:36

I didn't actually realise that it's so 'Them and us'. That's really shocked me. Because I'm white and a feminist would you just dismiss me?

That's what you took from her post? No, we'll dismiss you because you're ignorant.

itsakindatragic · 22/03/2021 21:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:38

@OutsideTheWhiteHouse

....and it definitely isn’t about having a chuckle. I’m usually filled with fucking rage at another woman being ‘cancelled’ because she dared to speak against the agreed liberal left line.
A right wing 'feminist'. How quaint
HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Quotes a deleted post.

OutsideTheWhiteHouse · 22/03/2021 21:40

I’ve said repeatedly I’m left wing. But there is a ‘right type of left wing’ right now, decided mostly by men and it has a catchy little tag #nodebate. Again, to go into that in depth is going to derail a thread for and about black women. So I’ll step off.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:42

@OutsideTheWhiteHouse

I’ve said repeatedly I’m left wing. But there is a ‘right type of left wing’ right now, decided mostly by men and it has a catchy little tag #nodebate. Again, to go into that in depth is going to derail a thread for and about black women. So I’ll step off.
Goodbye. We're not interested in trans on this thread. Julie has already tried to shoe-horn it in and got her arse handed to her.
Puffalicious · 22/03/2021 21:50

You don't have any right to dismiss me. I can assure you I'm not ignorant, not at all. You've not even acknowledged that as a working class woman I've seen my fair share of discrimination. The black girls I teach (and all girls of colour) have a double whammy of poverty and racism to deal with, but you'll dismiss me because I'm not black. You don't know me, yet I'm cancelled? Way to go to divide women and build rifts.

Puffalicious · 22/03/2021 21:51

I didn't see Julie get her arse handed to her, she disagreed. You're really bitter and blind to any other opinion than your own.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 22/03/2021 21:54

@Puffalicious

You don't have any right to dismiss me. I can assure you I'm not ignorant, not at all. You've not even acknowledged that as a working class woman I've seen my fair share of discrimination. The black girls I teach (and all girls of colour) have a double whammy of poverty and racism to deal with, but you'll dismiss me because I'm not black. You don't know me, yet I'm cancelled? Way to go to divide women and build rifts.
Who 'dismissed' you? For someone talking about someone being bitter and blind you are sure making a show of yourself!