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Black Mumsnetters

This board exists primarily for the use of Black Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

578 replies

FTMF30 · 14/03/2021 20:27

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

  • The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time Hmm) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.
  • comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).
  • the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

  • comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.
  • comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

OP posts:
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Benelovencd · 23/03/2021 11:09

Its not very clear but I managed to read it, and wholeheartedly agree. We need to move the conversation to the actual harm racist acts (whether intentional 🙄 or not) instead of the outrage of being called racist. That centres the perpetrator's feelings ahead of the person who was actually harmed. How is that ever fair?

RedMarauder · 23/03/2021 12:29

That centres the perpetrator's feelings ahead of the person who was actually harmed. How is that ever fair?

It is white people policing black and brown people again. Their feelings always come first.

If a white person, particularly a woman, is taken to task over acting like a victim or simply ignored, they then start with their insults.

Some of the white posters on this thread illustrate this clearly.

They are also unable to read, absorb and understand, they just have to butt in.

Benelovencd · 23/03/2021 12:42

Can we also all firmly agree that white and working class is not the same thing as black. There are also Black working class people, who face the same issues and then have racism to tackle as well.

Starseeking · 23/03/2021 13:47

@Benelovencd

Can we also all firmly agree that white and working class is not the same thing as black. There are also Black working class people, who face the same issues and then have racism to tackle as well.

I think using the word privilege (not that you did, but they usually make that association) seems to confuse them. It seems to act like a trigger for outrage in some quarters. They are unable to comprehend that by virtue of being white there are all sorts of prejudices they will never have to face, despite "having had to pull themselves up by their bootstraps".

It doesn't seem to occur to them that being working class AND female AND Black results in intersectional challenges that impact the individual and group negatively far beyond anything that class alone could.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 23/03/2021 17:12

[quote Benelovencd]twitter.com/DanielHewittITV/status/1373966081061220359?s=19[/quote]
WTAF?!Angry

RedMarauder · 23/03/2021 19:45

Yeah I saw that story yesterday.

One black man with the first name Leroy found if he didn't give his first name when he rang up he got a "better response" from Croydon council.

A "better response" being them coming out to look and doing SFA.

HmmmmmmInteresting · 23/03/2021 20:17

I could weep for that woman with her kids. 'Are we moving, mummy?' Sad

KevinTheGoat · 23/03/2021 21:57

@Benelovencd

Woke also has it's origins in AAVE, which makes it even worse when a bunch of white people get together to make fun of it, and how it doesn't even make sense especially language/grammar wise.

Just another way to punch down really.

It's nothing short of disgusting to take a phrase used to describe those aware of racial injustice as an insult. Keep protecting the racists, and trying to make those affected feel small for speaking about their experiences and calling out racism. That is exactly what you are doing when you co-opt our words and vocabulary that we work so hard to put our experiences into words in the work against racism. I'm really tired of white people and white feminists co-opting anti-racism work in situations that are not analogous even if they are genuine human rights issues because it obscures the work done to bring attention to our issues and sometimes derails our movements. Do your own work!

This. All of it.
9qU9AXlgvZgJ · 08/04/2021 13:30

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RobboCop · 13/04/2021 02:17

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RedMarauder · 15/04/2021 02:40

@RobboCop

I almost wish this thread had been posted in the feminism section so it couldn't be ignored.
No there would have been a worse pile on with white posters, especially ones who are only see trans issues as important, explaining our lived experiences don't exist.
KevinTheGoat · 18/04/2021 11:15

Which has already happened a few pages back, but yeah, you're right. If it was in FWR it would get turned into ANOTHER bloody trans thread because G-d forbid women are allowed to talk about anything else or examine the ways in which racism hurts women (for example, the belief that black women either have higher pain thresholds or don't experience pain at all, which has gotten black women killed in the past).

Nobu · 23/04/2021 08:18

I'm a white feminist and I ee your point. The murder of Sarah was particularly problematic because it was at the hands of a police officer and there were reports that complaints were made about him previously. However, I did notice the wide difference between in reaction between this and Nicole and Bibaa who were also murdered in a park. I raised it at meeting in work.
As a working class woman I notice the 'woman from an estate' and the 'woman from Chelsea differences too.
Black women and working class women were written out of the female suffrage movement.
Likewise the antislavery movement in the UK.
Don't give up on feminism though. You are needed.
Black American feminists saved the USA from a 2nd Trump term.
Linda Bellos is one of the most fearles.feminists I've met.

Avaynia · 13/05/2021 14:34

I just learned about Black Mumsnet so I’m late to this thread but it’s so on point. I’m American so there are some differences, but no matter where you are, feminism is absolute garbage. It’s so often such a narrow minded point of view that I don’t relate to it at all. The funniest part about it for me is that they understand. In fact, they understand perfectly. There’s endless talk about microaggressions, everyday sexism, and how language shapes culture and needs to be challenged to change attitudes, and how the poor menz can’t experience sexism because the system is designed to benefit them, or how #notallmen is toxic. Yet when it comes to racism, suddenly the goalposts shift. Somehow men can’t experience sexism because Patriarchy but white people can totally experience racism. Or sometimes it’s, “well it’s not systematic racism, but it’s still racism.” Yet casual sexism against men isn’t a thing. Suddenly, “what if a white person is poor or disabled?” is a defense against white privilege but they don’t bring that up as a defense against male privilege. Suddenly, “it’s wrong to paint a whole group of people with one brush.” So #notallwhitepeople. And whenever black women describe their experiences with race no matter how common it is then it’s, “I would say the same thing to a white person/You’re overreacting/That has nothing to do with race.” Gee it sure is crazy how they understand the elements of systematic inequality only when it impacts them, but when it’s another group of people you’re suddenly imagining things or overreacting.

There was a thread a little while ago that got purged about a mother whose son learned the n word in during history in school and used it against his black friend in an argument shortly afterwards just to hurt him. Yet there were people on that thread saying, “he’s not racist. He’s just young and did something stupid.” Or, “a slip of the tongue shouldn’t ruin his life.” Or, “it’s so serious to be accused of racism.” Of course in the, “close your legs your fanny stinks” thread there wasn’t anyone saying his words were a slip of the tongue or it’s dangerous to accuse someone of sexism. Lots of calls for him to be suspended and made an example of for his misogyny, though, and some who thought it was entirely justified that he got punched in the face for what he said.

But see white women are notorious victims. They’re seen as innocent, pure, delicate, (Insert ain’t I a woman speech here), and most importantly without agency. “Oh the evil menz oppress the women and they just had no power.” White women have always had power over minorities. They’ve always had power, they know they have that power, and they know exactly how to use it. It was wielded during slavery, during segregation, and it’s wielded now. That’s how you end up with the Amy Coopers of the world. They know people will see them as innocent and they use it to their advantage. Just like when they start crying when they’re called out for their behavior. It turns them into a victim and makes the person calling them out, often a woman of color, look mean and aggressive. Or when they hijack a conversation to make it all about their feelings and experiences. Absolute manipulation.

And then there’s the trans thing. Oh my god. I do not understand the obsession with the transgender women. I almost don’t even want to bring it up because any excuse to hop on the trans hate train is taken and completely overshadows anything else that’s said. It’s the only thing they’ll talk about to the detriment of everything else. Is there room for conversation about women only spaces, sure, but transgender women being the biggest threat to women in modern times? Really? Transgender women aren’t the reason for the pay gap, which is bigger between white men and women of color by the way. They’re not the reason women are killed daily by their partners. They’re not the reason women are trafficked and sold as prostitutes. They’re not the reason for FGM or child brides. They’re not the reason for nonexistent or shit maternity care/leave. They’re not the reason access to birth control and bodily autonomy is constantly being threatened. They’re not even the reason the rape statistics are so high. That’s all cis men. But a minority amount of a minority group is the biggest threat. Yeah right.

All over the political threads there were women who support Donald Trump just because he’s anti-trans. Where’s all of their pro-woman convictions with that one? Where’s “believe women” with accused marital rapist and domestic abuser Donald Trump? Where’s “women deserve their own spaces” with admitted to walking into the changing rooms of teen girls because he’s the boss and they let him Donald Trump? Where’s “protect girls” with the openly grooming and sexual behavior towards his daughter and accused of raping a child Donald Trump? Where’s “men who use sex workers and porn are rapists” with cheated on his pregnant wife with a porn star Donald Trump? Where’s “women have a right to bodily autonomy” with choosing an anti-abortionist accused sexual predator to sit on the supreme court for life Donald Trump? And that doesn’t even get into the racism, ageism, homophobia, ableism, and attempting to destroy American democracy in the name of his narcissism and white supremacy stuff. So somehow “there’s absolutely nothing to celebrate” about Kamala Harris and they can’t overlook the “bad” of being her pro-trans and recognize she could be beneficial for women and women of color in many other ways, but they can ignore all of the bad about Trump to appreciate the “good” of being anti-trans. And then they’ll bleat on about “Creepy Joe”. God forbid you hold both men accountable for their actions. Nope. Totally willing to throw every aspect of feminism under the bus just to hate trans people. Okay then.

It’s like when people say we can’t allow immigrants because what about the homeless population we need to take care of. And then they vote for slashing VA benefits, social programs, and encourage hostile architecture and criminalizing homelessness. They don’t actually care about the homeless, they just want an excuse to hate immigrants.

Yet despite all of this we’re always expected to turn up and be their work horses in the name of womanhood and solidarity while they actively invalidate our issues and take our words and attack us with them i.e. wokeville. Or co-opt our struggles and pain to elevate their complaint in exchange for minimizing ours. BLM is demonized but #justiceforSarah. Or I don’t see countless threads about the black maternal death rate, for example. Lots of threads about Meghan being smug though. And they have the nerve to do things like opt out of the woman’s march because it wanted to focus on the voices of women of color but we’re supposed to turn up when they’re the only ones talking. But bringing up race challenges their status as perpetual victim. If they acknowledge race as an element to sexism, suddenly they become the oppressors just like the evil men they’re fighting. So they ignore it instead or villainize us as divisive for wanting to include all women instead of just white women. Wanting to close the gap between white women and white men is not the same as wanting women to be equal to men. From what I’ve seen, more often than not, a white woman’s feminism is the former not the latter. And it shows.

I also hate when they apologize for being white. Just like I hate it when men apologizing on behalf of men. It always comes across as, I don’t know, selfish? Insincere? You don’t need to apologize for being white or on behalf of white people. It’s performative. If you actually care about all women, then what you need to do is learn how and when to listen, hold yourselves to the same equality standards you expect of men and hold other white women to those standards too. There’s nothing wrong with being white, but as white person you do have privilege just like men do. If someone showed up to the ER with a cut on their hand people would find it absolutely absurd if the doctor treated it before a gunshot wound. But that’s how white feminism works. Well, more like they’re doctors who only treat hand wounds because they’re more important than anything else. Gunshot wounds have to treat themselves because their problems are none of the doctor’s concern. Or something.

Anyway, bless anyone who read this very long and controversial rant. All of that to say I agree with you, OP, haha.

KevinTheGoat · 13/05/2021 22:28

I'm glad you posted that. And as a white woman, I also dislike the self-flagellation thing. As you said, it's performative and helps nobody.

DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 13/05/2021 23:47

Wanting to close the gap between white women and white men is not the same as wanting women to be equal to men.

@Avaynia
Your entire post is so beautifully put. I agree with absolutely everything, but that quote is the perfect description of white feminism to me and exactly why it is exclusionary.

I am so over woke being used as an insult by white feminists who seem to conveniently forgot the word means being aware of racial injustice. How is that a bad thing? How do you fail to realise how that is alienating to WOC?

But as you say, they know exactly what they are doing. It's all the protests of racism not existing, Black people being oversensitive but the chilling actions of Amy Cooper knowing exactly the response her actions will get from the police and using it to control a Black man and make him yield to her will, it's the white man being stopped by the police at and airport and them handling him roughly and him asking them to stop, he isn't Black they shouldn't be treating him this way.

White people know exactly what they are doing and what is happening, they just refuse to acknowledge it.

EchoCardioGran · 14/05/2021 02:29

@Avania Welcome!
It did me good to read your post. You said it all so well.

EchoCardioGran · 14/05/2021 02:31

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt
Yes!
(Great to see you!)

timeisnotaline · 14/05/2021 03:14

@BlackIsBlackIsBlack

Sojourner Truth (1797-1883): Ain't I A Woman? Delivered 1851 Women's Rights Convention, Old Stone Church (since demolished), Akron, Ohio

Well, children, where there is so much racket there must be something out of kilter. I think that 'twixt the negroes of the South and the women at the North, all talking about rights, the white men will be in a fix pretty soon. But what's all this here talking about?

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?

Then they talk about this thing in the head; what's this they call it? [member of audience whispers, "intellect"] That's it, honey. What's that got to do with women's rights or negroes' rights? If my cup won't hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn't you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?

Then that little man in black there, he says women can't have as much rights as men, 'cause Christ wasn't a woman! Where did your Christ come from? Where did your Christ come from? From God and a woman! Man had nothing to do with Him.

If the first woman God ever made was strong enough to turn the world upside down all alone, these women together ought to be able to turn it back , and get it right side up again! And now they is asking to do it, the men better let them.

Obliged to you for hearing me, and now old Sojourner ain't got nothing more to say. [1]

I haven’t read this before. I love it, thank you for sharing.
DastardlytheFriendlyMutt · 14/05/2021 13:01

@EchoCardioGran Great to see you too! (Took a little sabbatical from SM for a bit!)

EchoCardioGran · 14/05/2021 13:48

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt Same here! Sometimes you just got to open the windows and breathe in some fresh air. Wink

C130 · 14/05/2021 14:24

@DastardlytheFriendlyMutt

Wanting to close the gap between white women and white men is not the same as wanting women to be equal to men.

@Avaynia
Your entire post is so beautifully put. I agree with absolutely everything, but that quote is the perfect description of white feminism to me and exactly why it is exclusionary.

I am so over woke being used as an insult by white feminists who seem to conveniently forgot the word means being aware of racial injustice. How is that a bad thing? How do you fail to realise how that is alienating to WOC?

But as you say, they know exactly what they are doing. It's all the protests of racism not existing, Black people being oversensitive but the chilling actions of Amy Cooper knowing exactly the response her actions will get from the police and using it to control a Black man and make him yield to her will, it's the white man being stopped by the police at and airport and them handling him roughly and him asking them to stop, he isn't Black they shouldn't be treating him this way.

White people know exactly what they are doing and what is happening, they just refuse to acknowledge it.

Well said. The word woke being used as an insult, I find really irksome.
Thewinterofdiscontent · 14/05/2021 19:28

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Misbeehived · 14/05/2021 19:49

Thanks so much for lifting the scales from my eyes by joining the thread to tell us we’ve got the wrong context. Really enlightening.

Yes I’m being sarcastic. But really you can’t expect better with such an embarrassing attempt to gaslight. Angry