I am feeling increasingly detached from feminism as a black woman - am I alone?

[FTMF30]

From a fairly young age there's always been this thing (feminism) that I've felt totally enchanted by but could never fully embrace. I am all for women's rights, but as I get older, I just don't view myself as a feminist at all.

The more I look into it, I feel feminism is problematic in the sense that it is born out of racism and is still framed around white women. If you look back at the suffragette movement, black women were used and then sold out by people we thought were allies. In fact it would seem, historically that white women only truly cared about equal rights when black men began to get more rights than them. Before that they seemingly didn't give a shit about being treated as subordinates.

Today, many posts on the feminism board often have racist undertones, with false comparisons "imagine if black people were treated. . . "

On Mumsnet alone, I feel reminded that, whilst I am a woman and I advocate women's rights, feminism really isn't for me. Examples of why I feel this way are:

• The incessant vitriol towards Meghan Markle. I don't think she's perfect(far from it) but she receives a lot of criticism and insults beyond justification. What exactly has she done that is really that bad? She has been criticized on MN for sharing her miscarriage (supposedly at the wrong time ) and sharing that she suffered mental health issues and felt suicidal. When it comes to sensitive topics such as mental health and suicide, if people think she's talking crap, the sensible thing to do would to not comment on the matter as NOBODY knows how she truly feels, but instead, many have piled on making wild accusations.

• comparing blackface to drag and implying that somehow drag is actually worse (as someone who is both black and female, I feel quite strongly that black face is much, MUCH worse).

• the whole uproar about Sarah E's murder - it's awfully tragic but it is no different to the brutality black women and men have suffered at the hands of the police (many times on duty) for years. I am very sad about Sarah's death and I'm glad it's getting so much attention, but what stings is the radio silence in comparison about the murders of many black women who's families still have not gotten justice. It's as if SOME white woman have only just learned about police brutality

-defence of white women who weaponize their white womenness (e.g. American woman who threatened to call the police on that black
man in the park whilst she was out walking her dog. Her threat was along the lines of her saying she would explicitly state she was a white woman being threatened by a black man.)

-the suggestion that there needs to be a WLM (women's lives matter) movement - I don't even have the words to explain why this enrages me.

• comparing the the BLM movement (even before it was co-opted and deviated from it's initial and simple intention) to Sarah's vigil/protest - some of the comments are as though black women don't exist. Like there is no such thing as being female AND black. A comment on a thread said something on the lines of "BLM was in response to a bunch of criminals dying at the hands of the police, Sarah did nothing wrong." Again, I barely have the words.

• comments that there shouldn't be a "black mumsnetters" section. Why TF not? Just as women need space to chat, black women need space to chat, because sometimes, it is only your kinfolk who will truly understand how you feel, what you're going through, etc.

These are just SOME examples that have come to mind, but there a re many more. I love mumsnet but sometimes, the comments on here (though not directed at me personally) are really hurtful. I even sometimes do not want to comment on trivial posts incase I am unknowingly interacting with racists.

Am I alone in feeling like this?

White, Scottish & working class here.
Currently doing a women’s studies MA. I got really upset initially when I started, all the talk of white privilege etc. Not me was all I was thinking. We’re not all fucking privileged ffs. I felt really excluded from something that was really important to me- feminism. It felt horrible. Then after some reflection and more reading I realised the fact that I made it to 45 and hadn’t felt excluded before was my privilege showing itself....and that’s how black women must feel...and even more wtf when I’m doing a module on black feminism am I centring how I feel as a working class white woman and my experience when I should be listening and learning.
Then Crenshaw, followed by Dorothy Roberts and a final education by the phenomenal bell hooks and I was educated.

AAVE is African American Vernacular English.

There has been a real backlash from AAs at having their language be dismissed as unprofessional, ignorant and all the terrible stereotypes but edgy, cool, modern, fresh when other people of other races use it and especially companies in their advertising campaigns profit off it and appear hip and "down with the kids", non-Black people adopting a blaccent and describing it as just the way they speak because they grew up in a Black area but then go on to mispronounce common words like "chile" making it obvious they have only first seen it in writing and are lying, or just non-Black people describing AAVE as the way all young people speak when even old Black people use these terms and have been all their lives but are constantly put down for not speaking properly.

Thankfully gone are the Oprah and Cosby days of advising Black people to "speak properly" and respectability politics. It is not fair that AAs are forced to codeswitch but non-Black people can adopt a blaccent and AAVE, as well as appropriate AA fashion and hairstyles and walk into their place of work and say these things for some "revolutionary ad campaign" and be labelled as a visionary and on the pulse but Black people just being themselves are constantly put down. Dressing and talking like Black people while profiting off AA culture but using it as a stick to keep AAs on the periphery of society and minimise the economic opportunities offered to them is not okay.

@HmmmmmmInteresting

I didn't actually realise that it's so 'Them and us'. That's really shocked me. Because I'm white and a feminist would you just dismiss me?

That's what you took from her post? No, we'll dismiss you because you're ignorant.

Direct quote of you dismissing me. I've no idea why you think I'm making 'a show' of myself or being 'blind or 'bitter' for trying to further understanding of all working class women, especially those of colour.

You come across as nasty with an agenda and if people are expressing an opinion not in line with that agenda you don't like it and are rude.

A great post Ben about AAVE. We've fought the fight for Scots dialect for years. We're getting there and I hope AAVE has similar recognition soon.

@Puffalicious you dismissed yourself because you thought we were dismissing you for being a white feminist. I said no, were dismissing you because you are ignorant. If you indeed are ignorant then accept my apologies because yes I am dismissing you. As I have every right to.

🤣🤣🤣🤣

You do not have a right to dismiss me, you don't know me. Where have I given you the impression that I'm ignorant? I am anything but: I'm a well educated, well read, working class woman. You're determined to get one up on everyone who questions you.

I don't need your apologies or Ben's snide laughter. Christ, this is like being back in the playground, but far far bitchier. Do you both get pleasure from trying to belittle other women?

So even as a BW hmmmm I do my best to stay away from AAVE, as I'm not AA. I don't want to add to people dismissing it as "Twitter speak" or the digital Blackface, Blackfishing and caricatures of AAs. Also I'm not a dick and know how to be respectful of different cultures and languages while admiring the creativity but not going so far as to appropriate something that is not my own. Even if as a BW, I could get a pass

Agree with you, @Benelovencd
Though I must admit I love a lot of the AA speak. I keep wanting to add 'PERIODT!' at the end of a particularly emphatic sentence, but often think people will think wtf am I on about 😂

HmmmmmmInteresting
Agree with you, @Benelovencd*
Though I must admit I love a lot of the AA speak. I keep wanting to add 'PERIODT!' at the end of a particularly emphatic sentence, but often think people will think wtf am I on about 😂*

It's such an immensely satisfying word tho.

dun talk🤣

We need to start using it on here

It is just such a rich culture and language. But I think that of all Black languages really. They are quite descriptive. When I think of African languages and the descriptions of things, there is so much lost in translation, same with Jamaican Patois, and other Caribbean languages.

A joke in all the above just doesn't translate well to English.

I love AAVE and a periodt. Okay...but I do try to be respectful.

I've found myself saying Nigerian phrases to my kids that my mum used to say to me. Because no English words can adequately articulate the feelings I have at the time

Bit of a tangent - I have been very distressed by this in the past - the misuse of black cultures.

I recall my days in a juggernaut of a firm, say the Goldman Sachs of the investment mgt world. I was on a graduate scheme of sorts and we would have these corporate mingling dinners designed to force contact between c-suite employees and us, the new breed or whatever. Excruciating and fertile ground for micro aggressions. It was the very worst. Had to steel yourself before opening the door and heading in because you knew for sure there would be some bullshit going down which you had to smile through like a gormless fool. And there was this white young man who would always intro himself as a lover of hip hop. Every so often he would put on his hip hop act (Get Hired or Die Trying') which I guess wa sa little funny, but the 5th or 6th time of seeing it. Cap on backwards, the works. The black ones among us (very few) would shrink with embarrassment and also reflect upon the fact that if WE were to admit we LOVE hip hop we definitely would NOT get hired. Yet, it made him special, notorious in the very best possible way. Fuck that, seriously. Fire bun.

Then Jamaican Patois and how that is bandied about, with no respect whatsoever for what words and phrases actually mean. I remember maybe 15, 20 years ago hearing a bunch of young Indian teens at the tube station talking and at the end of every sentence they would say 'a lie', 'a lie'. I swear to G*d it threw me. I had ni idea what they were saying. THAT IS NOT WHAT 'A LIE' MEANS. Now it used incorrectly so often that outside of any Jamaican home it means however these usurpers were using it. A damned shame they are killing off we culture. Dem a kill i.

I find that I use patois to express any sort of emotion, like when I'm cuddling my babies. English just doesn't hot the spot.

I take any black language I can lay my hands on to speak to my brothers and sisters. It's the subversion I claim.

I'm sorry you went through that Sugar. It's not okay and it still happens. Typical Black culture garners insults when Black people are just existing and being their authentic selves. It illicits insults and we are all of a sudden stupid, ignorant, uneducated and every bad thing you can think of, but the minute a non-black person appropriates the same thing, it's fresh, new, edgy, on the pulse, the future etc.

It's not okay. People minimise it by saying we are just appreciating your culture. No, Black people are tired, they know the tricks now. There is never any credit given and even when it becomes mainstream, it's mainstream for everyone but the originators themselves - they still get the same insults and stereotypes attached to them. So keep that same energy, if it's not cool when we do it, it's not on when you do it either.

I'm not usually one for heartfelt concessions, but this thread has genuinely challenged my perceptions of the feminism that is so integral to my selfhood and sense of identity.

I urged posters on another FWR thread not to post in this topic as it was 'essentially full of posters saying I'm white and I don't recognise these perspectives'. However, the truth is that it is actually full of posters saying 'I'm white and I don't recognise these perspectives, but I will try my best to acknowledge my privilege/blindness and educate myself'.

I think I took it personally because I am in many ways one of the white feminists you describe, especially in regard to my prioritisation of trans issues, possibly to the neglect or other important topics, but I do honestly believe that this is one of the most grievous assaults on womanhood of our lifetime as how can one advocate for women if we cannot define them.

But I do not wish to usurp this conversation so I will acknowledge my missight, offer my apologies, and state my solidarity with my black sisters. I hope that one day you can find your way back to feminism.

I been meaning to reply to a post i think by Echo (sorry of I'm wrong) from days ago.

I'm glad you brought up remittances to Africa and majority Black countries by Black women in the UK, the US, etc. (Also remittances by the diaspora community far outweigh foreign aid- just important to note). We often do this purely as individuals and the money goes were it is desperately needed, from sending girls to school to providing sanitary ware or building wells and other infrastructure that benefits young girls so they don't have to walk so far in some rural communities for water. I am aware of multiple community projects in two countries alone where huge NGOs (in the news for sexually exploiting young women and children) have come in towards the end of projects spearheaded by locals and helped with one bit then claimed the entire project as their own and used that to findraise more money from people here, which is wasted on large salaries and "overhead costs" with so little reaching the people they claim to support. It sctually gives me the rage to think about, using Black people's suffering to make money so you can pay yourself a bloated salary, then overexaggerate your efforts by claiming Black people's work again.

Anyway I wanted to say that is one of the ways I see BW constantly working to improve other BW's lives without calling attention to themselves or going on about "how much they have done for/given to" Black people. When Black people in particular BW donate and support far more than any organisations based on numbers alone, but to hear the media and the narrative being bandied - you would swear we are not active, and sitting on our thumbs waiting for someone else to help/save other BW who have it worse than us, but I know women campaigning for free sanitary wear (achieved in South Africa) and were running pad drives and sending money for such 4hings for years, building schools, paying school fees, buying books and other things as individuals.

I just love BW- you are amazing 👏

I had never heard of MOPE before but that perfectly describes the FWR section atm. Disappearing up its own arse, single issue voting that throws all women who aren’t rich white and married under the bus, but this self centred self serving movement is reframed as ‘fighting to call myself a woman’ - literally no one is stopping you calling yourself a woman. Such a bait and switch.

@LisaStansfield

I had never heard of MOPE before but that perfectly describes the FWR section atm. Disappearing up its own arse, single issue voting that throws all women who aren’t rich white and married under the bus, but this self centred self serving movement is reframed as ‘fighting to call myself a woman’ - literally no one is stopping you calling yourself a woman. Such a bait and switch.

That’s such a fucking unfair synopsis of FWR.

‘Disappearing up its own arse’ - what? By caring about the complete policy capture of government and public bodies by a vocal minority of males, and the threat to sex-based rights for ALL women? It’s a HUGE issue. It’s not some niche navel-gazing exercise to amuse white academic poshos . It’s men in women’s prisons, men in women’s refuges, men in women’s sports.

It’s very, very far from throwing women under the bus who aren’t rich, white and married. Half the rad fems on FWR are lesbians, for starters. Not all are white. A lot of us are from working class, immigrant backgrounds. I personally don’t want my BLACK daughter to lose her sex-based rights.

And as for ‘literally nobody is stopping you from calling yourself a woman’. They are, actually. We are called pregnant people and menstruators by the NHS, ‘cis women’ all over social fucking media. TERFs and transphobes for saying we are biological human females.

This is happening. Alongside the world of race-based bullshit you are all describing. It shouldn’t be the oppression olympics. You’re fighting the wrong people.

Here is another link to AAVE for those who wanted to know.

I hope these show up properly...

Arghh, the writing is very small