White women posting on Black Mumsnetters - all good?

[Sugarintheplum]

Hiya,

I'm just looking for your honest opinion here - feel free to get a new handle to respond to this one if you like (I do that sometimes!)

My view is this: I don't hugely object, partly because it's the internet, and I can't expect that to be truly for a devoted protected space, so it's kinda 'meh'. I just thought about it because of the 'are blonde women more attractive' thread, and there are lots of white women on it.

I've asked something similar before, and I ask it again here, if it's called Black Mumsnetters, why might non-black women want to post? I can see why they might want to lurk and read, but what might make you want to be visible, present and contributing to that space?

If it is a belief that no space should be 'exclusive', i'd think Black Mumsnetters might turn one off completely - ugh, yuk, segregation. If it is a belief that well, one or two white women won't change things (do they? My opinion is that yes, a space with just black women in it talking black women things is materially changed by having white women in it) I can see that too maybe, only things do have a way of being taken over and before you know it black mumsnetters has very few black women at all posting. If it is 'I should be able to be wherever I choose, thank you!', or 'i just love being in chats with diverse groups, I 'm not thinking about it that way' I'd like to know too.

But mostly, black women, how do you feel about it?

Like I say, I'm cool about it, I just don't get it. If there were a Trans Mumsnetters, or Asian Mumsnetters, or LGBT Mumsnetters, or Young Mumsnetters, I wouldn't feel any sort of compulsion to post, I'm black straight and over 30. My children's partner is from a different ethnic group to me and if there were a group for mumsnetters from that community, again, I wouldn't feel any sort of need to post.

Anyway, on this I am truly musing.

Ta!

I personally don’t find June genuine I recognise her username..... there’s black hair topics. If that’s the case why is she wasting her time here? I don’t understand what your trying to say. “BAME relatives” honestly I hate that term and tbh before Covid I never heard many people using that phrase. It’s all very patronising.... as is “Ive washed Afro hair before”.... it’s nearly as bad as “I have a black friend”.

I’m sorry I stick by my opinion. I wouldn’t involved myself in a topic bond extensions because it’s no use to me really and if I wanted to really know I may just read and not comment

@Phoenix21 your example would be valid IF that were the case that’s not what June asked though is it? Also there’s a black hair section or she can start her own thread for Afro hair advice.

June stated she had washed Afro hair previously... she then when on to state she has “BAME relatives”. Tbh it’s like she was trying to validate her point by mentioning these things.

Ah. I think I read the tone/intention differently.

I stand by my point in general, but it sounds as if it might not apply in this particular instance (I cannot be arsed to read all of those posts).

When threads come up in Active, many people just don't bother to check which board it is: after a particularly brutal mauling on the Infertility section (by posters who seemed to think it was AIBU!) a couple of posters campaigned to have it hidden from Active threads and MNHQ agreed. The same happened with Adoption.

Probably as a result of my experience on the Infertility threads, I always check what board a thread is on before I answer - as you said you were interested in non-black women's opinions, I've answered this but wouldn't usually.

Posters, such as June, who genuinely want to fins out more about the black community should be encouraged, not discouraged from posting in this section

That's not what people wanted the board set up for though.
I don't know if you missed the threads that sadly people had to go through to get it set up, but they were awful.
Why shouldn't people have their space to share lived experiences?
If I want to learn, I can read.

all the subjects covered such as food, education, style and beauty could be covered in other sections of mn, or the Internet
And as was pointed out on the original threads, they're generic hair care/food threads.
Not specialised ones.
Eg, there was a thread where somebody asked for afro hair care
answers went like this

-"Sorry, can't help"

• "Try googling" etc etc

So with this board, you're likely to get people who understand or have experience themselves with afro hair.
Seriously, this has been to death, over and over, why should people have to constantly justify and explain why they want the space?

Thought I recognised the username!
"If you don't like, stay away" about the other site that must not be named and with the disgusting racism on it.
Erm, yeah.
Makes you wonder how many people genuinely "want to post because to learn about hair!" or not.
God, this shit must be exhausting.
Seriously, people, read the other threads.

Quagers on one hand you point out that this site you will have people with the right experience and knowledge on hair /skin care but then in the next site you say look on the other threads. (which you have already pointed out won,t help,)

@Phoenix21

If craicsnet has been set up as a safe space for Irish women, I think it is a misuse for you to use it as a non-Irish woman to ask about where to stay in Dublin. That's not what their safe space is for - your personal interest questions. I'd also say it's not the place for you to ask questions to learn about Irish women - their safe space was not established to educate you.

I always think of it this way, because racism is insidious, one post might be neither here nor there, but what if craicsnet became the go-to place for people who are not Irish to ask questions about where to stay and what life is like for Irish women. I think behaviours that are not appropriate need to be handled and corrected early on.

@Standrewsschool

Much of what I've just said stands as a response to you comment, but I am very curious about why white women should be 'encouraged' to post on black mumsnetters. I can see why they might be tolerated, or once they have posted, say to make a recommendation of a book etc, the comment might even be welcomed, but 'encouraged' to come on and ask questions about black womanhood? I'd really say not.

And I don't find it so respectful for you to disavow the very rationale for the forum - subjects such as food, education, style, and beauty could not be safely covered in general MN, that is why we are here, we are trying to achieve a safe space. Our need for that should not be disavowed.

Quagers on one hand you point out that this site you will have people with the right experience and knowledge on hair /skin care but then in the next site you say look on the other threads. (which you have already pointed out won,t help,)

I meant as in to show that not everything is always genuine, or as it seems with some, I thought my post made that clear?
Not about the topics that are on here.

@Phoenix21

"I don’t see any issue with a post: ‘I work in an elderly care home, I’m tasked with washing an elderly woman’s Afro hair, but its a bit dry does anyone have some tips?’

Or

‘I care for an elderly Caribbean couple who have asked me to get some breadfruit. Where’s best?’"

This is not appropriate on black Mumsnetters because it was set up as a safe space for black women. There are places on the internet, maybe even on MN where the objective is to share culture, invite others into the culture, and explore and enjoy all the things our wonderful world has to offer. That is not this space. When a white women posts 'can you help me with x' she becomes centred. I would be minded not to respond because Black MN is not the safe to centre a white woman's need. She can always post in general MN. We are not congregating here so that people who are not black can easily find us to ask questions about ourselves!

Please understand, I am not saying it is wrong for people who are not black to ask these questions, I am glad they are asking such questions, I am just saying this is not the right place for it.

Perhaps ‘encouraged’ isn’t the right word, but perhaps I should say ‘not discouraged’. If someone, whether black or white, has a genuine question about wanting to know what children books to choose for BAME child for example, then to me, the obvious place for this question would be the ‘Black Mumsnet’ section.

This thread makes it clear there there is confusion as to the purpose of the Black Mumsnet thread. Ie. A safe space (which I don’t disagree with), but also to inform/educate people on black matters.

Sugar - just read your last post (we were obviously typing at the same time!) which in many ways answers sone of my points abive.

Mumsnet has both men and non-parents on it, so I think that's your answer regarding protected spaces on here. There aren't any.

It's only the obvious place if you think the black women are there to answer those questions, I strenuously repeat, this is not what Black MN is for.

It just is not. We aren't here so that we're easy to find for any questions to be lobbed our way so we can spend our time answering them. People can be informed by reading the threads - that should be enough, it's already a lot of access, in my opinion. Its kinda a goldmine, really. It does not mean they have to jump on and ask questions.

Unless as a black woman I should always be accessible to someone wanting ask me questions about my life.....

If this section has been established for people who are not black women to ask questions of black women and their blackness, can someone please tell me and I'll be off, never to be seen again!

People can be informed by reading the threads - that should be enough, it's already a lot of access, in my opinion. Its kinda a goldmine, really

Exactly

Unless as a black woman I should always be accessible to someone wanting ask me questions about my life.....

You shouldn't have to, I can read and so can others too - whereas you're entitled to discuss things which the board was set up for.
You'd be forever fielding off "oh so innocent" questions instead of getting advice/talking to others about daily life or whatever.

@Quaagars

hands pressed together thank you!!!

I've actually changed my view on this. I responded to a woman who was asking if it was okay to wear a jumper with a Black santa on it. At the time I didn't mind, but I suppose it could be an issue if BMN just gets filled with queries like this. I think the points you have made @Sugarintheplum are very valid and I agree. I think there is space on mumsnet for people asking questions relating to other cultures, but I think BMN should be a place where Black women (from varying backgrounds) get together to 'gist' or 'lime'. We should be free to do this without having to respond to white women wondering about managing hair or whether to wear a black santa jumper - these posts can actually be on the main MN threads.

We are not congregating here so that people who are not black can easily find us to ask questions about ourselves!
You are right it is primarily a safe space. It can educate people merely by existing but it does not serve to educate. There are a couple of threads with posters making the thread about themselves and "just wanting to learn " that is not the objective of the space.

If too many people derail threads in that manner then yes black women will cease to use the section to share their experiences because what's the point and how does it differ from the main board where you must explain nuances, and every detail of your experience and how it possibly couldn't be racist.

I also dont get obviously racist people coming to "just learn:" then proceeding to ask extremely offensive questions, insist everyone is wrong and their take is right, then play victim when called out for it.

It makes the site exhausting and you articulated if very well when you said, unless posters insisting we must constantly educate everyone mean that black women exist simply to constantly answer questions about themselves, their culture, experiences and blackness to other people

I am white. I wouldn’t comment on a thread that is about, say, personal experience of racism or on anything taking ownership of black culture or on views of colonialism for example because I don’t have any right to talk about those things and it really isn’t necessary for me to have any input into other people’s truth when it isn’t my experience.

I have, however, commented on threads that popped up in active about children’s books featuring black characters but not about race, because I know of some really great ones. And I’ve commented on a thread about hair products, again because it popped up in active, because DH’s hair responds best to products designed for Afro hair so I buy a lot of them.

And if there was an overall view that I shouldn’t participate as a white person, then I wouldn’t.

@Sugarintheplum I see your point and am sitting on the same bench as @babynumber2pending.

The aim was a safe space to exist without justifying that existence. Which is othering and quite frankly tiring, esp when of the nature that @Dastardlythefriendlymutt mentions.

I think I retract my earlier points.

@FaLaLaLaLaLaLaLaBlah

I am white. I wouldn’t comment on a thread that is about, say, personal experience of racism or on anything taking ownership of black culture or on views of colonialism for example because I don’t have any right to talk about those things and it really isn’t necessary for me to have any input into other people’s truth when it isn’t my experience.

I have, however, commented on threads that popped up in active about children’s books featuring black characters but not about race, because I know of some really great ones. And I’ve commented on a thread about hair products, again because it popped up in active, because DH’s hair responds best to products designed for Afro hair so I buy a lot of them.

And if there was an overall view that I shouldn’t participate as a white person, then I wouldn’t.

It is possible to have informed, sensible and sympathetic views on colonialism whilst being white. It is also entirely possible to abhor racism and be white and also to have experienced it yourself

Some aspects of threads require actual experience like abuse, motherhood, marriage, poverty etc I get that but to say someone is not allowed to comment on them because their lack of it is a slippery slope on here

I don’t want to hijack this thread. I don’t post on black mumsnet mostly because I only go on active threads but I think to set these sort of prerequisites is regressive and insulting f to hopefully most modern educated women of a variety of ethnicities and race.

You are right it is primarily a safe space

There is no such thing as a 'safe space' on MN.

It's a wide open, lightly moderated, global internet site. It's the nature of the beast that you have to take the rough with the smooth.

Look at what happened to the SEN topics, for an example of what I mean. And don't ever encourage anyone to think a site such as this is 'safe'

I really don't think anyone is saying white people are not allowed to post in BMN. Not only would that be ridiculous, it would also be completely unenforceable.

What I am saying, is that I don't want BMN to become a space that is used by white people to:

• centre themselves
• lecture Black women
• invalidate Black women's experiences
• share their proximity to Blackness (DH/DP/DC/BAME relatives), and no other reason
• ask disingenuous questions

Posts which contain any of the above, I personally wouldn't engage in discussion with, and there have been some in BMN already.

As I said earlier in this thread, white people who post in BMN should be mindful of the space they are in, and sensitive to how their comments may be perceived. There are some posts from white people in BMN who absolutely understand that, and I've no issue with those, and would in fact welcome them, and engage in discussion.

Every @Starseeking said

I would add to that
-silencing black women sharing their experiences
-tone policing

@Starseeking

I really don't think anyone is saying white people are not allowed to post in BMN. Not only would that be ridiculous, it would also be completely unenforceable.

What I am saying, is that I don't want BMN to become a space that is used by white people to:

• centre themselves
• lecture Black women
• invalidate Black women's experiences
• share their proximity to Blackness (DH/DP/DC/BAME relatives), and no other reason
• ask disingenuous questions

Posts which contain any of the above, I personally wouldn't engage in discussion with, and there have been some in BMN already.

As I said earlier in this thread, white people who post in BMN should be mindful of the space they are in, and sensitive to how their comments may be perceived. There are some posts from white people in BMN who absolutely understand that, and I've no issue with those, and would in fact welcome them, and engage in discussion.

This happens all over the rest of MN