White women posting on Black Mumsnetters - all good?

[Sugarintheplum]

Hiya,

I'm just looking for your honest opinion here - feel free to get a new handle to respond to this one if you like (I do that sometimes!)

My view is this: I don't hugely object, partly because it's the internet, and I can't expect that to be truly for a devoted protected space, so it's kinda 'meh'. I just thought about it because of the 'are blonde women more attractive' thread, and there are lots of white women on it.

I've asked something similar before, and I ask it again here, if it's called Black Mumsnetters, why might non-black women want to post? I can see why they might want to lurk and read, but what might make you want to be visible, present and contributing to that space?

If it is a belief that no space should be 'exclusive', i'd think Black Mumsnetters might turn one off completely - ugh, yuk, segregation. If it is a belief that well, one or two white women won't change things (do they? My opinion is that yes, a space with just black women in it talking black women things is materially changed by having white women in it) I can see that too maybe, only things do have a way of being taken over and before you know it black mumsnetters has very few black women at all posting. If it is 'I should be able to be wherever I choose, thank you!', or 'i just love being in chats with diverse groups, I 'm not thinking about it that way' I'd like to know too.

But mostly, black women, how do you feel about it?

Like I say, I'm cool about it, I just don't get it. If there were a Trans Mumsnetters, or Asian Mumsnetters, or LGBT Mumsnetters, or Young Mumsnetters, I wouldn't feel any sort of compulsion to post, I'm black straight and over 30. My children's partner is from a different ethnic group to me and if there were a group for mumsnetters from that community, again, I wouldn't feel any sort of need to post.

Anyway, on this I am truly musing.

Ta!

@Dastardlythefriendlymutt

Every *@Starseeking* said

I would add to that
-silencing black women sharing their experiences
-tone policing

Do we all disclose our ethnicity or race when posting anywhere else? I don’t

Haven't RTFT

I am a white woman and was on the thread that resulted in the creation of the black mumsnetters board.

My position was at the time that I found iincredible the indignation of other non black women on the thread at the idea that they would not be in the best place to contribute. Posters were saying it's like segregation.

I disagreed wholeheartedly. Why would I comment on a board for black women when I am not black? My experience is not relevant or valuable in a setting designed for black women discussing things centred around them.

It still baffles me that it's controversial. Because whether society likes it or not, it's quite clear that being white is still considered some kind of "default" position so I am neither offended by a black mumsnetters board nor feeling neglected for there not being a "white mumsnetters board" [shudder]

Posters, such as June, who genuinely want to fins out more about the black community should be encouraged, not discouraged from posting in this section

I don't understand this perspective at all. This is a board for black users to come and have discussions centered around themselves - it's not the "teach white people about black people" board

I'm not saying no one should answer questions if they feel happy to. It just seems like an odd hijacking of the purpose of having a separate section.

This happens all over the rest of MN

Maybe it does. If that's how white people would choose to engage in BMN, I'd just not involve myself, and go back to making the odd comment on AIBU and other topics. It's no great shakes to me 🤷🏿‍♀️

This thread has been an eye opener. I commented much earlier on that I'd posted on a couple of BMN threads which I'd deemed general chat (though i knew they were in BMN) . I also said i don't arrive and start by saying "I'm white" because on those threads it didn't seem necessary. I wouldn't post on a thread specifically about black women's experiences and in fact stopped myself doing so the other day.

In reference to an earlier pp, i'm also active on craicnet, being Irish, and I'd not take offence to anyone of any race asking a question on there. None at all. I would find it offensive if an English person arrived though spouting anti Irish rhetoric.

I'm torn but ultimately feel like it's not really important whether i am or not, it's not about me and I'll steer clear from posting in BMN. I believe in the need for safe spaces. I think it's a shame in some respects as in my head i like to think white and black people chatting away on here is important to break down the perceived differences (we're all just desperate for our 3 year olds to sleep through the night right?!) but actually differences and recognising them are just as important.

Growing up in a large Jamaican, Indian, mixed race community I would ask op this:

WHY IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION?

Black women white women mixed race Asian whatever
We are all women and there is no segregation
The fact that you even used the word segregation
SPEAKS VOLUMES 😳

Black women don't not give a flying arse if we talk about issues that effect them

Why wouldn't we? If we cared understood what's it's like surrounded with racism every day.... if we all spoke up understood and came to a better place for it... what's the bloody problem

Frankly I found this whole thread utterly offensive

Do we all disclose our ethnicity or race when posting anywhere else?
I don't

May I suggest then @Cleverpolly3, that that is because you are so used to being part of the majority when posting?

To my mind, the default MN user is a white, married, MC, English woman living in London or the South East. The vast majority of posters I have seen, seem to think everyone belongs to the same group they do. I read a post the other day where the OP had said she was Irish, yet people repeatedly posted from an English perspective.

Sometimes it's relevant for people to post their ethnicity as part of the context of the discussion. Nobody has asked anybody to disclose their ethnicity before they contribute. I also noticed that people DID used to post their race when there was a thread in which race featured prominently on the main board, before BMN existed.

I wanted to point out on that particular thread, which came up in Active, that I personally have usually found people with dark hair more attractive than blondes and when I was a little girl I looked up to more female celebrities with dark hair too.

@Tangledtresses

Growing up in a large Jamaican, Indian, mixed race community I would ask op this:

WHY IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION?

Black women white women mixed race Asian whatever
We are all women and there is no segregation
The fact that you even used the word segregation
SPEAKS VOLUMES 😳

Black women don't not give a flying arse if we talk about issues that effect them

Why wouldn't we? If we cared understood what's it's like surrounded with racism every day.... if we all spoke up understood and came to a better place for it... what's the bloody problem

Frankly I found this whole thread utterly offensive

The whole of mumsnet is for anyone to comment on surely? If you have advice or something helpful to add to a thread you should feel you're able to do so without feeling like you're not the right colour regardless of what thread its on?

@Tangledtresses Sorry I don't know why I quoted your comment

@Starseeking

Do we all disclose our ethnicity or race when posting anywhere else? I don't

May I suggest then @Cleverpolly3, that that is because you are so used to being part of the majority when posting?

To my mind, the default MN user is a white, married, MC, English woman living in London or the South East. The vast majority of posters I have seen, seem to think everyone belongs to the same group they do. I read a post the other day where the OP had said she was Irish, yet people repeatedly posted from an English perspective.

Sometimes it's relevant for people to post their ethnicity as part of the context of the discussion. Nobody has asked anybody to disclose their ethnicity before they contribute. I also noticed that people DID used to post their race when there was a thread in which race featured prominently on the main board, before BMN existed.

How do you know? So many assumptions

Assume as they say makes an ass

I think I'll leave you to it @Cleverpolly3.

@Starseeking

Easier to be patronising and oblique then

@C130 here we go again with saying i'm not welcome to post as a black woman because of my views on black men. This is absurd. My views are valid and it it something we need to address as black women. A portion of black men have expressed a preference for lighter skinned women, and have 3 baby mamas. Why should these facts be hidden and not talked about?

The problem is the type of men you choose to get with. I've never been with a 'babyfather' type man. I value myself more than that and wouldn't be bothered with the pointless drama.

I'm a Darkskinned woman so I know about idiots who prefer lightskinned women, of course. But I'm not stupid enough to waste my life getting bitter over them or convincing myself all Black men are the same. I'm fine with my DP. He isn't a 'babyfather' and is a kind and loving man. I've no intention of looking away from him to focus my mind upon and think bitter thoughts on negative men. They're not in my life and home, and never could be.

'We as Black Women?'

How about spending less time getting with and obsessing over the type of wasteman any grown women of sense wouldn't give the time of day, and more time building up ourselves, younger women, our daughters etc?

Way too much focus on men has some women's brains addled. There really is more to life than men. That whole men men men mindset transcends race - As do useless men that don't deserve to be given the time of day. You see life and read the rest of MN don't you...? So you know what the real deal is out there.

@DeeCeeCherry
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

I dont know how one can honestly justify tarring all black men with the same brush because you had a bad experience with however many black men. By that logic then all black women are *insert whatever negative stereotype". I can't take anyone seriously who feels the need to bash down an entire subgroup of people to justify a preference.

I don't care who you date but you don't have to pull down all black men or all black women to do it. Internalized hate is a topic one should explore if they feel that way.

[quote Dastardlythefriendlymutt]@DeeCeeCherry
👏🏿👏🏿👏🏿

I dont know how one can honestly justify tarring all black men with the same brush because you had a bad experience with however many black men. By that logic then all black women are *insert whatever negative stereotype". I can't take anyone seriously who feels the need to bash down an entire subgroup of people to justify a preference.

I don't care who you date but you don't have to pull down all black men or all black women to do it. Internalized hate is a topic one should explore if they feel that way.[/quote]
I read a few of that posters comments, thankfully they seem to have disappeared now (or perhaps MNHQ banned them after their most recent posts were deleted).

I find it bizarre when a Black women denigrates all Black men, and vice versa. Everyone has mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers etc, so what they are saying about the opposite sex, they're saying about their own family too.

When those who suffer from such deep internalised racism have "Black" DC, of this opposite sex they hate so much, I wonder how this must affect the DC.

*Black in inverted commas as although they are likely to be mixed, externally people would describe them as Black.

That is always my fear for the daughters of black men who express such disgust at black women and the sons of black women who say similar about black men. How can you then be tasked with raising a person you hate so much without getting to know them.

Yes they are different because they are yours and they won't have those negative stereotypes because you raised them. But how will you feel when you hear people espousing the exact same sentiments you did about your child when they don't even know him/her.

The mind boggles how you can reconcile any of that

Its a very valid question. I post here sometimes as even though I’m white my two sons are black and I find I get advice and insight on here that I don’t from my white friends. I was discussing BLM with @PatricksRum on one of the other threads in the summer and we have messaged eachother a few times. I then wanted to show my support when the Black mumsnetters thread started. I am mindful about jumping in on threads and most often don’t but there have been a couple of times when I have asked advice for example when I has very conflicted feelings about black history month I raised it here and got very helpful responses. ❤️

Because I am the OP I feel a certain responsibility to look at this thread - is that weird? I promise I'm not posting so much because I want dominate the discussion.

@Lndnmummy I look at it like this. You have come to Black MN, and looked at the threads, and what YOU want to know about has not been raised by black women, perhaps because it's not an issue for them, perhaps they just haven't got round to it yet. So YOU decide as it is some thing YOU want to know YOU will post the question - do you see how you centred yourself? I believe you do sincerely feel you respect black women's need for a safe space and to be centred, but when it came down to weighing that and YOU'RE needs, you chose your need.

Of course black women responded to you, many are kind and wonderful women. That doesn't really mean it was cool for you to post.

For some reason, though you could have, you didn't post in general MN. Why is that? As an ally of black women, its oddly be great for you, to try to combat racism and prejudice in the main board.

If you had asked your question on the main board there is no reason black women would not also have answered you there, we are also in general MN as well as black MN, it's not that we are here and nowhere else. If you post about wanting to discuss BLM with black women, or raise questions about your sons, we would also respond to you there.

So, long-winded, but I am saying, if you truly do respect our space, it isn't really for you to post questions for us to respond to you here.

That's not to say raising two sons who identify as black when you are a white woman isn't hard and you are not deserving of support, I am sure I speak for many of us when I say that, we are still here for you sis.

your/you're. tsk

ok, so many typos, can't correct them all, wriggly baby on my lap!

@Sugarintheplum I hear you and fully take your points on board. I guess it highlights how far we have to go to address white privilege! Here I am thinking I’m doing the right thing or at least not the wrong thing and still get it wrong. Despite the best of intentions. I do fully acknowledge the points you are making and I’ll use the main board only in the future. I am only responding back as you addressed me directly and I didn’t want to be rude and not respond. I also wanted you to know that I’d read and reflected on your comments. I also just want to say that I have and always still address and challenge any racism and bias whenever I come across it, on mumsnet or otherwise. ❤️

I've read the whole thread and the different opinions and know that, as a white woman, BMN is not the place for me to intrude or ask questions. I understand the reasons for BMN and I respect your need to have your own space and I will continue to dip in and out of threads if they look interesting as that is what MN is all about.

@Sugarintheplum

“Of course black women responded to you, many are kind and wonderful women. That doesn't really mean it was cool for you to post. “

Wasn’t “cool” for someone to post?
Are you being serious?

I’ve read this thread and I suspect you’ve ironically probably increased what you see as “non permitted” traffic to this board: with statements like the one above perhaps it isn’t a bad thing.

You are actually in more danger of derailing and sabotaging your perceived safe space in on a public discussion forum than many of the posters you fee potentially could or have tried to do so when you write statements such as the one above.

What's wrong with using the word cool, or that phrase?
Not quite sure why you've got a problem with sugarplum's post - was only expressing her opinion.

with statements like the one above perhaps it isn’t a bad thing.

So you're happy because you perceive the above posts to "bring non permited traffic" to the board now?
That doesn't make you out to seem non genuine and shit stirry at all
Why would that not be a bad thing if you weren't genuinely not out to cause trouble?