White women posting on Black Mumsnetters - all good?

[Sugarintheplum]

Hiya,

I'm just looking for your honest opinion here - feel free to get a new handle to respond to this one if you like (I do that sometimes!)

My view is this: I don't hugely object, partly because it's the internet, and I can't expect that to be truly for a devoted protected space, so it's kinda 'meh'. I just thought about it because of the 'are blonde women more attractive' thread, and there are lots of white women on it.

I've asked something similar before, and I ask it again here, if it's called Black Mumsnetters, why might non-black women want to post? I can see why they might want to lurk and read, but what might make you want to be visible, present and contributing to that space?

If it is a belief that no space should be 'exclusive', i'd think Black Mumsnetters might turn one off completely - ugh, yuk, segregation. If it is a belief that well, one or two white women won't change things (do they? My opinion is that yes, a space with just black women in it talking black women things is materially changed by having white women in it) I can see that too maybe, only things do have a way of being taken over and before you know it black mumsnetters has very few black women at all posting. If it is 'I should be able to be wherever I choose, thank you!', or 'i just love being in chats with diverse groups, I 'm not thinking about it that way' I'd like to know too.

But mostly, black women, how do you feel about it?

Like I say, I'm cool about it, I just don't get it. If there were a Trans Mumsnetters, or Asian Mumsnetters, or LGBT Mumsnetters, or Young Mumsnetters, I wouldn't feel any sort of compulsion to post, I'm black straight and over 30. My children's partner is from a different ethnic group to me and if there were a group for mumsnetters from that community, again, I wouldn't feel any sort of need to post.

Anyway, on this I am truly musing.

Ta!

I have had to washed and care for other peoples Afro hair. And as I have done various caring/personal care jobs it,s not unlikely I will in the future so knowing about caring for different types of hair is useful.

Thanks for all of the responses, I will do my best to respond now as I have seen some contributors to the thread mention whether I might return to share some of my thoughts. I can't respond to everyone, but where I think I'm not repeating myself I'll give it a go!

@AwaAnBileYerHeid

Well why do non mums post on mumsnet? Because every topic isn't about mums and their children, there are various, engaging topics on everything from careers to finance to fashion to good old fashioned drama.

I'm assuming black mn isn't just people tslling solely about being black - there are other interesting discussions going on yeah? So why wouldn't a woman see something interesting, say a topic regarding an industry she works in and wants to discuss? There are probably other topics however that you would need to be black to fully understand.

My thoughts on this are: why is the OP posting in Black MN, when it would be easier almost to just go to general MN? It's likely because the are seeking a safe space and/or they specifically want to hear from other black women. I would also say that you as a white woman might think a topic appears race neutral, but a black woman might read that differently. Eg: 'what do you think about Eastenders?'. If I saw that Black MN I might think they are talking about the portrayal black people in the show, or issues raised about black people etc, and that the poster wants to hear from other black women on it. Another one 'How to raise my son'. I would think the poster meant 'how to raise my black son', wanting to hear from other black posters, because surely, even she were seeking opinions from everyone, she would just wrote 'how do i raise my black son' in the general forum.

Now, I also think this might be more or less important. 'Christmas recipes please!' - that poster might be cool with white women contributing, I don't know, what harm etc. But', you know, there might be topics where the poster is less welcoming to contributions from white women, i don't know 'I'm finding it harder and harder to have white friends', which is a conversation one of my black female friends came to me with recently. But in all of these cases, I think the posters would be ok with no white women posting, however the degree to which they are ok with white posters chiming in might differ.

@TheCrowsHaveEyes

I'm still struggling with the fact you wouldn't go clubbing with your lesbian friends because you didn't want to encroach on LGB clubs. Are you young or from outwith the UK? Because when I was a student, we'd go to LGB clubs with our LGB friends and if someone had refused that would have been considered very bigoted. I have no view on the question you've raised in relation to MN. Anyone can be anyone on the internet. Trying to police engagement in online forums seems bizarre to me but, as someone of mixed heritage, I also wouldn't post in a forum delineated by race. Anything that attempts to normalise proving or questioning ethnicity is not a positive imo.

Not trying to police at all. It seems you aren't ok with safe spaces. I think it is great that you don't feel you need that. However, there are other people who do and I respect that.

I was born in the 8os and spent my life in SE England. But curious about your thoughts about people from elsewhere and how that could be important.

@TellItToTheStars

I don't agree, i think black women can have a full conversation without white women You do realise this comes across as racist. The whole point of Black Mumsnetters is to discuss issues black women face and it is a good space for other races to comment and be part of the conversation. How else can other races be educated on us black women to stop the predjudice?

Yes, I think I mentioned that elsewhere - it's the internet....

However, i will say that I have held events, meetings and starting organisations where white women have demanded access, or apparently not thought it truly mattered that they were white. So this is not just an internet thing.

@GingerScallop

Am black and am wondering: can a white woman with a mixed race child or black adopted child come here and comment on or ask about hair or skin care for a black child? I have two senior white women in my life I consider surrogate or "deputy mothers". They have on occasions pointed me towards very good black authors, documentaries etc. If they read a black man or woman on black mumsnet was asking for good books on say racism (one of these women pointed me to the book "Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race" well before it became a bit) would it be offensive if they posted such a suggestion to a specific request.? I understand where you're coming from (risk of the space being taken over. It pretty much happened with blm especially with white celebrities). It's a tough question in some ways. What if a white woman posts here asking to learn? As for attractiveness of blondes, I don't see it as an exclusively white debate since someone from any ethnicity can find blondes attractive or not. I don't see race being a barrier to whether one funds certain features attractive

I think it might take sense for them to post a question on Black MN. I would wonder why they didn't post in general MN, not because I think they should not post on Black MN, but I'm just thinking they could just as easily post 'help with my mixed race child's hair!' in general MN. I wonder why they wouldn't do that? Is it because they would assume the space were different in some way. Whatever that is, would they then consider how the space would change as a result of them being there? Again, look, I'm not saying they should not or could not, I am saying a space carved out for black women is materially altered by white women being in it. When white women appreciate that space before they decided to join, they could also reflect on how as soon as they join the space it became different to the one they were regarding and appreciating.

I was born in the 8os and spent my life in SE England. But curious about your thoughts about people from elsewhere and how that could be important.
It wasn't about my thoughts about people from elsewhere. I was trying to ascertain if there's been a generational shift or if it's a geographical difference. Quite often there are different attitudes/habits/words across the UK. So from your response it could be generational (as you're younger than me) but it also might be geographic as you're in England and I'm in Scotland.
You also seemed to misunderstand my post about my feelings on the need to have and police the section. I agreed with the creation of the forum because other posters did want it. My support of their right to have it sits alongside my uneasiness that it represents a slide into demanding other's ethnicity. From my work within the community, labelling (whether self-imposed or establishment-demanded) isn't usually positive. S, for those reasons, I supported the request for the section but don't frequent it. I also worry posters may 'believe' they have created a safe space when, in reality, it's impossible on the internet. Anyone can claim anything.

@TellItToTheStars

I don't agree, i think black women can have a full conversation without white women You do realise this comes across as racist. The whole point of Black Mumsnetters is to discuss issues black women face and it is a good space for other races to comment and be part of the conversation. How else can other races be educated on us black women to stop the predjudice?

I probably need to devote some time just to you @TellItToTheStars

I'll be honest with you and tell you that your contributions evoke two different responses form me.

The first is a profound sense of sympathy. It appears that your relationship with a black man was not good, and you have noticed some other black men behaving in ways you dislike. I'm sorry for all of that. I also sense that you feel more comfortable out of black majority spaces. I notice that your statements about black men have become more bold in this thread than they were in the other thread, this thread having attracted, as far as I can, more responses from white women than black women.

I want to share with you that life with a black man is wonderful for many women, black and white. I imagine that both of these can feel special for their own reasons, I can only tell you I'm loving being with my particular black man and raising our black family. I also enjoy black women spaces. I come away feeling pregnant with positivity, union, wind beneath my wings, army behind me, friendship and sisterhood, i could go on but this is not a place I want to share my feelings on it entirely. Suffice to say I absolutely love being among black women when it happens. I understand none of this might be for you, but I hate to think it won't ever happen for you because you think it doesn't exist anywhere - because it does.

On other hand, I really wonder wha yu really a seh: how can you come and tell me that my father, my son, my brothers, uncles, grandfather, cousins and all black men I know are no good? You don't know me or my people so a beg you, don't come on here and tell me that I know it is true that black men are wotless.

You are either extremely naive, lacking in even basic insight, or being purposefully provocative to come on Black MN and make sweeping racist statements about black men. You deserve to get run, which you have, and will continue to do as long as black women can be bothered to.

@TellItToTheStars

There are a few "guard dogs" on here trying to kick non-white folks off the thread. As a black woman, i strongly disagree with this approach. Yes we have our unique issues and i'm happy for all to be aware of what they are. Black folks can be just as predujiced as any other race and the OP has shown that by starting this thread

Please tell us what unique issues you speak of so that the white women on this thread can also be in no doubt that you are chatting breeze.

@duckinatruckwithmuck

I remember being at uni and i'd say probably most of my friends were lesbian, and they'd go to LGBT clubs and bars and I wouldn't go because those places were created as safe spaces,

Is this your passive aggressive way of telling someone non-Black to fuck off away from BMN? That's how it's coming across and another presumably BMNer applauds you for it.

I find it ironic that a group of people who've historically been excluded, unfairly judged, stereotyped, etc. for the colour of their skin then go onto a mainstream website and do the same back!

No, but I note the usual labelling of a black woman as aggressive. Even when we are quite clearly not being aggressive, we are charged with being passively aggressive. sigh....

@trixiebelden77

I hope it’s ok to post.

I’m white and sometimes read threads but don’t contribute. I’m not sure what I would add? The world spends plenty of time hearing the perspective of white middle class women.

The thread about being blonde wasn’t about whether blonde women are attractive but whether it is a cultural norm to value their appearance over the appearance of a more diverse range of women. What would I offer to that as a white woman who benefits from cultural ideals about beauty? I’m surprised that other white women felt they could offer a valuable perspective that would be fresh and new.

It’s not necessary to join every conversation when your voice is already valued and prioritised.

I sometimes think along these lines

@JacobReesMogadishu

Ok, I have never posted on a thread on here (I don’t think) before.

I’ve never come into this section but have clicked on the odd thread before in active convos and then not posted as I’ve realised what section it’s in.

I’ve just had a click through some of the threads in this section and have a few thoughts. Some threads I can clearly tell that my views would be useless and not welcomed. I have no experience of racism towards me and black people do not need a white person chipping in with their opinions I’m sure.

What about the post about cycling clubs in London? The poster doesn’t ask for one which is especially welcoming of minorities, if I knew a group would it be ok to recommend it?

What about the podcast thread which does ask in particular for podcasts about black women? I’m not black but I may have heard an amazing podcast about a black women?

Even the thread about private schools. The OP asks for experience of sending your kids to a private school when you’re an ethnic minority but also talks about not being wealthy when everyone is and would that affect the kids. If I’d clicked on that in act convos would it be acceptable to say well I’m not black so can’t answer your first part but we are as poor as anything, ds got a scholarship, everyone else is rich and this is how we’ve found it?

Dunno, and like I said I don’t post. But I feel sorry for the poster asking about cycling clubs with no response. There is a cycling topic/thread...she may get more luck there.

Let's say the poster wanted to start riding with other black women. Would she be safe posting 'any black women want start cycling together' in the main board?

I don't know. I could see how that might turn out badly....

@stillfeelingmad

Hm but i dont think your examples are very fair talking about 'white women coming into black spaces' or your example of a group of black women going off for a matter and a white woman barging in, I think those are fundamentally different, I'd be surprised if any of the women (or maybe men) who posted on the thread perceive it the same way as joining in a black students union group at uni or the Bame network group at work for example. It's an app, and on mine the active thread titles are always bold with the topic in a very pale blue on a blue background so not that noticeable.

I understand why the conversations are needed and yes there is absolutely a full conversation to be had by solely black women but I think your ascribing too much intent to what's got to be a lot of people just using this app for chat. Some (me) will be sleep deprived from kids and probably end up boating on this topic, scotsnet or all sorts.

As a mixed heritage, white passing woman I'm not sure you'll want me either but feel like this thread was opened up intentionally to a wider audience

Thanks for this. I think those are some of the reasons white women post, for sure. I was asking for reasons and you shared, thank you.

I'm not sure about the white passing issue. It must be quite complicated. I am not in that position at all, but if you are white passing and so is all of your family, are you having a black experience outwardly in life? You might very well do spiritually, emotionally. So i don't have an answer to that. I did ask elsewhere what does make it black. It can't be skin colour alone, for me anyway, but I do think that is a kind of basis of identification. But when it comes to the white passing person, I imagine their lives are also shaped by the legacy of centuries long totally unfounded racism.

BTW, yes, white women join groups set up for black women all the time. At uni our Soc for Black students was mostly white. People said they didn't want a completely white uni experience because, they liked the music, food, etc.

@cactusisblooming

I hope non Blacks aren't banned as I love the cookery threads! FWIW I really supported the notion of a black board - a space where black women could post any issues pertinent to them in a discrete area that would be flagged up by other black women. I didn't mean though that non blacks were banned though.

Why would you feel the need though

I've posted on the authors and cookery threads as they aren't race based, they were just asking for recommendations. There are atheists posting in the Spirituality boards and non Muslims posting in the Muslim Tea Room threads, whilst not the majority they are all welcomed. Different people are interested in things, even when they don't directly affect them. I've learned so much about other cultures and ways of life from MN, it's really one of the biggest reasons I am here.

I see your point re cooking.

Can I ask this - would you feel the same if the topic was 'share your west African recipes' and it came to be that 100% of the posters were white British?!

In your comment you assume that black women aren't seeing responses from other black women. You assume cooking is nothing to do with race. That might very well be so.

I would also say that I think race permeates pretty much every facet of life. Sad, but its the way I think it is.

@TellItToTheStars

To reiterate, i'm black and don't always feel welcomed to post on BMN because of some of my life choices, so i wouldn't imagine the non-black folk "can" post

Your life choice is to be anti-black man and for that reason you might find yourself roundly shunned just about everywhere!

To reiterate , no one cares about you being with a white man, they are invested in combatting your denunciation of black men.

Ok, i'm going to stop responding to you now.

OP I’m just posting to agree with you. This space was fought for (I remember the thread) and should be a space where black Mumsnetters can have discussions without whitesplaining.

Ok all, gtg. Hope my responses are received well. Later

I'm white and read the board...my dc are mixed race so that has perhaps made me more interested in lots of the issues being discussed. I don't tend to comment as I don't want to intrude on someone else's space. I did comment on the thread about blonde hair because I have strong opinions on how beauty is viewed within western culture.

I'll start by saying I'm white, and haven't (to the best of my knowledge) posted here before.

what are the reasons behind white people wanting to be in black spaces.

I think sometimes they don't know its a black space, as other posters have said. I also think, because its the Internet, it doesn't always appear as such a defined space.

It's likely because the are seeking a safe space and/or they specifically want to hear from other black women.

This might be true, but might also be that the think a black person is just more likely to know the answer. Posting on the higher traffic boards can be tricky if no one answers right away. Its easy for topics to get lost.

That leads to another reason, if I see someone asking for help or advice and not getting a response, I might try to add something so it doesn't get lost.

Lastly, I might feel I can share something related. For instance, if its about racist bullying in school I might be able to share my experience of dealing with the police when bullying became physical. I'd know it wouldn't be exactly the same for a black poster, but might be useful.

Overal I feel non-black posters should be mindful of not encroaching on black only discussion but there are some reasons their input could be useful.

@TheCrowsHaveEyes

I was born in the 8os and spent my life in SE England. But curious about your thoughts about people from elsewhere and how that could be important. It wasn't about my thoughts about people from elsewhere. I was trying to ascertain if there's been a generational shift or if it's a geographical difference. Quite often there are different attitudes/habits/words across the UK. So from your response it could be generational (as you're younger than me) but it also might be geographic as you're in England and I'm in Scotland. You also seemed to misunderstand my post about my feelings on the need to have and police the section. I agreed with the creation of the forum because other posters did want it. My support of their right to have it sits alongside my uneasiness that it represents a slide into demanding other's ethnicity. From my work within the community, labelling (whether self-imposed or establishment-demanded) isn't usually positive. S, for those reasons, I supported the request for the section but don't frequent it. I also worry posters may 'believe' they have created a safe space when, in reality, it's impossible on the internet. Anyone can claim anything.

I did misunderstand you, apologies. Thanks for clarifying!

I'm white, have never posted in the BMN area before and wouldn't usually consider doing so, as it seems like a space that is reserved for people with experiences that I don't share. Some defensive posts here from white MNers. I'd be lying if I didn't admit that I feel a little stab of 'why shouldn't I post, its the Internet etc etc. But I guess thats one of the 'symptoms' of growing up as a part of the majority - its easy to feel entitled or that any rules that exclude you are unfair. Without of course seeing all the ways in which systems, rules, society at large favour you, because its sort of a function of privilege that its invisible to the people benefitting. Anyway, I think its fine for there to be a black MN section, I think its polite for white Mners to stay out of it unless specifically invited in. Matbe things will get better when we start to accept that not only can we contribute to a solution but we can also be -even inadvertently- contributing to the problem.

Someone also mentioned uptrend about the whole 'discrimination against white women's stuff they feel is happening now. I wanted to comment on that, I assume its referring to the whole 'Karen' references that have taken hold. Firstly I think there's a difference between being discriminated against, which seems more systemic and structural, and people feeling they can be openly dismissive of or rude about a group. I really dislike the whole 'Karens' thing, because ultimately it seems to me its a really neat way for middle class white men to deflect blame.and responsibility for the discriminatory systems we all live onto a group that - surprise surprise - they arent part of. As a feminist I think the Karen thing is really about misogyny more than anything else,, but that probably because most of the people I've seen using it are white men. Not saying white women aren't racist or don't use their privilege to others detriment, more just that the way the meme has taken hold is being used in a way that deflects rather than exposes or addresses a problem. But of course, that's my perspective as a white woman!

@june2007

I have had to washed and care for other peoples Afro hair. And as I have done various caring/personal care jobs it,s not unlikely I will in the future so knowing about caring for different types of hair is useful.

This is how feathers MAY be ruffled here... you need to accept it’s not the same for me this is where the confusion lies so because you have washed Afro hair you now feel entitled that you can relate to having to do Afro hair? I’m sorry but it’s laughable it’s not the bloody same! My nana is fully white and has raised 3 mixed kids however she would never dream of trying to compare hair types with her kids or grandchildren ... it’s not a competition it is what it is and it’s not comparable and this is how things gets lost in translation on MN.

@Littleyell

I read @june2007 differently to you. I presume June is a hairdresser. She’s not saying she can advise on washing Afro hair, but by reading the Black thread, she can learn about how to care for this type of hair.

Well well well, look at that, i'm the original true born and bred in the Caribbean black who came here in my early 20s so understandably my issues will be vastly different from the "born in the UK black" It is no wonder the BMN find it hard to relate to what i'm saying. To put it in context, a group of us Caribbeans migrated here in our 20s all from similar backgrounds and all of the females except one have settled with white english men so i'm not unique amongst my circle

I still think all should be welcome to post, black, white, asian, lesbian,trans, male....i'm really interested in their contribution to black topics as it can help me understand other races better