The PESH Deli - The drinks might be virginal, but that's about all...

[CurlyCasper]

Come in, come in to the new haven for diffed BESHies. I think a group effort is needed here (and I'm being a lazy preggo), so please add to the deli whatever you crave/love/can stomach.

Nominations are also open for sexy fathers we can hijack to serve our mouldy cheese and cured ham

And the best mocktail recipe wins...well, bugger all to be honest

looks like it.

just back from the scan, and although i'm down for wanting a vaginal birth, looks like the babies have decided they are too posh to push.

one is transverse and the other one is diagonally transverse

unless they move into better positions (getting more unlikely now they are running out of space) they will have to come out the roof.

and one is now about a pound bigger than the other, and although sonographer said that's fine and it's just genetics, doc says if there is a 25% diff in their weights it will have to be a section.

bit gutted really as i wanted to avoid the section and feeling sad my little one's not a bit bigger

oh well, at least we won't have to fork out for a doula. if it's the op there will be a team of 10 people delivering them

wasn't all that terrfied of the proper birth though really. thought there was enough drugs and shit these days to get u through it. i didn't see the program last night though. was it really all that bad????

lyra and everyone

I may x-post as I'm going to have to write this between working and it's going to be long.

I was really upset by this programme and ended up in tears, telling YOB that I didn't want to do it and had lost all my confidence. I had a long chat with mum this morning who made me feel a lot better and she also thought that the care given to both women was shocking. That's not necessarily blaming the MWs who were totally overstretched, but the care generally. It REALLY doesn't have to be like that but you do need to take it in hand if you're going to avoid it.

skiis very right, but sadly this sort of thing does happen a lot in hospitals, especially if they are busy/short staffed. Looking solely at the lady with the stupid, ignorant tosser of a pathetic excuse for the husband, she was left for nearly the entire labour alone, when asking for help they just shoved gas and air at her, and when the baby's heartbeat dropped during contractions (which is normal) instead of monitoring it themselves (to make sure it bounced back ok) the MWs just put machines on her which you saw were slipping and not working properly anyway (same as happened with me and LC).

When she asked for help, instead of just giving her G&A which she was struggling with anyway, they should have stayed with her and coached her. If she'd been in her first labour she would surely have been scared and upset - at least this wasn't the first time for her - but even so she really struggled on her own.

When bullied into the pushing part, instead of helping and supporting her, and guiding her, the MW just shouted at her. She didn't even physically support her and she forced the lady onto her back despite her already saying she'd been more comfortable on all fours - on your back being the single worst position for pushing other than doing a handstand....

The point is, this lady laboured alone and delivered with no help. In a supposedly civilised country with supposedly socialised health care where midwifery services were supposedly given priority, this is a disgrace. I have honestly seen better midwifery care in Africa.

The answer is, at a minimum, hire a doula. If possible, use a midwifery unit or have a home birth with a MW team who 100% supports it - an indie may be required if they don't, if funds are there. That way you get the support that is needed and then, I promise, it really is not anything like you saw on this programme.

I just looked at her labour and thought it was terrible, yet she had an uncomplicated G&A labour and delivery (albeit with an episiotomy) and straight afterwards she was fine. My labour and delivery with LC was much more traumatic and problematic - but because I had a supportive husband (yes, despite him being a tosser and a prick, he was supportive during my labour which I am immensely appreciative of) and a personal doula in my mother, it was absolutely fine and I didn't have anything like as bad a time as she did and I look back on it as a positive experience.

Labour hurts. There's no getting away from it. But it's not like a scary pain with the right people helping, and it passes. I kept chanting that to myself through the contractions. "This will pass". And it did. And just a few days later I thought back to the ante-natal classes which were totally birth-centric and realised that it was a tiny and short part of the whole experience of becoming a parent, and in the end, an insignificant part of the wonder and beauty of it.

But don't underestimate the importance of that support, and do everything in your power and budget to get it. It's the difference between what you watched last night, and a positive and ultimately happy experience.

I hope this helps. I don't know if I will watch anymore (other than the waterbirth one) but I promise, this programme is doing nothing to help women to understand the experience of childbirth other than to show how it shouldn't be done!

cheggars good news that they are fine, but sorry to hear about their laying decisions. However, it can all change. There are things which can be done to encourage them - have you been given this information? Google for all you're worth and find out as it may make all the difference.

However if there's no option, there's no option and at least you are prepared for it and it's not going to be an emergency. I hope it all works out in a way that you are happy with.

I wouldn't worry too much about the size thing. You know how it is that singletons born to the same parents can be several pounds different in weight anyway so for fraternal twins there's no reason why this shouldn't be the same. I would think that if there was any crossing of nutrients (can't remember the term for when one takes from the other) that they would see that on the scan and be watching it much more closely - not to mention a much bigger weight difference.

OH I wanted to say about drugs. The lady last night wanted an epidural but if she'd had one and then continued to be left, she'd have had a much higher chance of being sectioned with the baby apparently struggling as pushing would have been so much harder.

One of the advantages of my way is that you definitely have a consultant and a midwife all to yourself for the birth.

cheggs shame about sun roof option looking likely - but in some ways, maybe good to know what is going to happen in advance?

rots and lyra so didn't watch that - am not wanting to scare self unesscessarily...

My fucking tits are ridiculous.

They've grown again.

Need more underwear

I know iggy. I have two bras that fit and one has gone missing. God knows where. My left tit has all the stretch marks and really hurts. New undies for V-day?

Well, I'm back from the physio, sporting the ultimate in high preggo fashion - a pelvic support belt aka a giant tubi grip bandage that resembles underwear that sucks you in around the bum and tum. I also have a leaflet to put in my records which says i have SPD and the midwives/docs would do well to treat me right. Also got advice to get me bowels moving...

cheggs sorry about the likely CS. As iggs says, I suppose it's better to know in advance.

Right, I'm off to schmmooze some VIPs with loadsa money

Please to give us photos iggy? Yes, that's what I meant about your birthing option - that when you pay you'd better have someone there 100% of the time for you and you only!

I can't think of anything worse than being abandoned in a room with a midwife popping her head around every 30 minutes.

rots My mum was forced to give birth on her back and said she begged to be allowed to squat or get on her hands & knees but was physically pushed back on to the bed. She's very narrow-hipped () and it must've been hell. She reckoned there was some anti-English sentiment going on... but I think she just rubs people up the wrong way.

cheggers I agree with iggy that if this is the way it must be then at least you can mentally prepare for this rather that it being an emc. However, to echo carrots I've seen a lot of stuff out there about tips & tricks to get the baby the right way up for the type of birth you want.

curly Sorry about the SPD diagnosis but it sounds like your physio is on to it. I like the sound of the leaflet in your notes - useful for all those (still) ignorant midwives you'll come across. Belt is good but if it's like mine you'll find it is only useful when you are standing up / walking. If you sit down and stand up it pops off (and falls on the floor of the Sainsbury's cafe if you're me). Have you got some exercises to do?

cheggs Don't feel bad about the sun roof option if that's the way it has to go. I had a planned c-s last time and it was a really positive experience. It really helps if you think of the positives - you will know exactly when you're having your babies so can be all calm and organised, it is a lot safer than an emergency c-s (and even may be safer than a complex v-birth), and you'll have your babies within a few minutes of going into theatre - just like that, it's quite amazing! I had no trouble healing and even my scar is nearly gone now.

ski for your mum. TBH it's more likely to have been a sign of the times than anything else, no matter how difficult your mum may be . Awful though.

iggy sounds excellent.

cas at SPD confirmation but good they've helped.

pony do you mind me asking why you had a planned section?

cheg what Pony said - if it's the way it is, it's sooo much safer than an em-cs and should be nice and calm.

That TV programme last night - I tried to watch it but I was in floods of tears even before they had rolled the opening credits! I kept having to pause it so I could stop crying but in the end I Sky +'d it and went to bed. So I watched it today. I have some real problems with this!

Firstly, the woman with the tosser husband and son. Despite the fact that she was left alone for so long - what the hell was that useless lump of a man doing? If he had been a proper birth partner she would have had a much better labour. I can't believe she apologised to him when she asked for a glass of water! Start training your man now, and get him to ante natal classes! In our classes we went through scenarios of how (as a couple) we would make decisions about pain relief, what he could do to help, how we would communicate if things got tough, etc. I also don't think she had a birth plan at all, even in her head. She asked 'I wonder if it's too late for an epidural?' whereas she and her husband should have been clear on when that decision point was if it was something she had been considering. The husband should have been back and forth fetching the MW and asking questions. God I was angry!

As for the lack of midwife attention - I am afraid that is all too common. Be proactive, make a plan, make a pain of yourself, insist on more attention (this is your partner's job). Oh, and choose a good hospital. Plus an experienced friend can also act as a doula or extra support, if you haven't got the money for your own. Or have a home birth. They can't leave then!

As for the woman who had the c-section. WTF? Going into theatre she was still confused about why she 'had' to have it. Um, excuse me, a c-s is a major operation which requires informed consent. You need to be entirely informed and convinced by the reasons they provide. This seemed very "doctor knows best" to me. When she asked, 'Does this mean my baby will struggle after he comes out?' she was told 'Not necessarily'! I felt so sorry for her, not being given the proper information about what was going on. I guess I am a lot more assertive, and so is MrP. I would have been asking for a proper explanation of the monitoring chart, a proper explanation of exactly why the baby was struggling, and would keep asking questions until they provided a proper answer.

I guess it just reinforces that you can't rely on the professionals to make decisions with your best interest at heart - you need to be proactive, informed, and ready to take charge, ask questions, and make decisions yourself. And by 'you' I bloody well mean the man involved as well! So angry.

I agree with everything you said pony. That tosser of a husband was beyond the pale. Not only did he not support her and be her advocate between her and the midwives, he actively got in the way of her ability to handle her labour. And the only way to manage being left alone in labour is to have your own MW or doula - or at the very least a confident partner who will do the arguing with the MWs that you can't do. Of course, I was fortunate to have my mum to tell my ex what to say and do which gave him the confidence to argue - without that it wouldn't really have been fair for him as he couldn't have made informed medical decisions.

I also felt terribly sorry for the younger girl. I was confused that she was wondering what was going on with everything and she just seemed terrified. However, it did make YOB and I talk about that (or rather similar) scenario and we agreed that in that case, if it were possible, YOB would go with the baby as I would be ok, and the baby should have at least one parent with him or her if it was possible (and it wasn't clear whether it was here because of the fact that they were working on the poor bairn).

On a positive note, I saw on another thread that someone knows the younger family and the little boy is doing well, which is fantastic.

I also wondered where they were going with the programme. It didn't have any structure, story or indeed point.

rots Raasons for the planned c-s last time? In a nutshell it was the SPD, but obviously I tried to find a way around this. To get an idea of how bad it was - I was in a wheelchair full time, in absolute agony, and couldn't use my legs at all. I was like a paraplegic except I could actually feel the pain. It was an extreme case and pretty unusual.

Here's how it went in discussions with the consultant. First thing was, I couldn't open my legs apart. At each appointment we measured how far apart I could move my legs. Her priority was that I could get them wide enough apart to enable her to get in there with some forceps! It was questionable whether I could, as my pain limit was very narrow, and you can do yourself some real damage if you force it. I had no positions where I was without intense pain, even without adding labour on top of it.

I suggested that I imagined I could go through with a vaginal birth if I could be supported upright in the birth pool. She said no way, not allowed, because I couldn't get myself in and out so it was considered too dangerous. I suggested other positions - the SPD support group specifically advises against on your back legs apart, but this is the only position she would consider as I couldn't hold myself upright and they didn't have any birthing stools. Also I would have needed an epidural as my pain was so bad at the end of the pg that I couldn't even get out of bed without screaming for an epidural. But they have a policy of not guaranteeing you can have one because if you have one then you must have a midwife with you full time from then on for monitoring, and if they don't have enough staff, you miss out if someone else got one first! Also, and epidural is dangerous with SPD anyway as there is a danger someone might move your legs beyond the limit as you can't feel it, then you could be disabled for years after the birth. And epidurals slow the birth process and make the likelihood of intervention much higher on top of the risk of that already, as I couldn't do the usual things like walk around to help the early stages progress.

So basically it was a choice between some horrendous vaginal birth scenarios which may not work anyway, or a planned c-s. I'm pretty sure we made the right decision.

Reasons, obv!

rots I completely x-posted with you earlier. Anyway - am v. pleased I switched over so I didn't watch that prog - I really don't need to see that right now!

ski you don't wanna see pics - really you don't

cas good that you got early diagnosis - that's gotta help I guess?

Am still v. nervous about tonight... duh.

iggs TBH I don't think anyone should have seen it. It Just Wasn't Helpful. Quite the opposite unless you were doing a training course on how not to run a labour unit.

pony Jeeeezz. It seems to me that we are all extremely lucky to be living in a time where things like sections are available when needed and while it's sad that they're over-used, there are times where they are absolutely essential. Such as for you, for the little boy on the programme, and possible for cheg. I don't know what to say given that we're all worried about a day of pain whereas not only did you go through it for months? weeks? you are doing it again. All kudos to you.

Yeah rots, I am just waiting for the day when someone says 'Oh, a c-section? So you haven't really suffered like the rest of us.' I will hit that person so hard they will land in Lancashire!

pone x-posted that really does sound fucking shit. Am you having cs again this time you think?

iggs I don't know yet. I was feeling all hopeful until a few days ago when I had the bad episode. I guess the same issues will arise if the SPD goes the same way as last time.

Still resting as much as I can today but I'm on my own and the foal is demanding to be pushed around on her Pooh bear ride-on. She's asleep now and I think I might leave her down longer than I should for my own sake. I might stretch the truth a little about how long she slept when MrP asks. If she sleeps for more than 2 hours in the afternoon she won't go to sleep at bed time. But, er, that's MrP's job tonight, so... (Am I bad?)

pony terrible and if MrP doesn't understand he needs a good seeing to.

LOL @ you not suffering like the rest of us, you too posh to push pony, you! That's why I was trying to "politely" ask whether you minded me asking - I know it can be a sticky subject.

Sorry it sounds like it's happening again though, that's utterly shit

I was going to moan that my neck is still playing up and I am worrying about being able to carry my babe, but I thought maybe I wouldn't bother, eh!

smooches to all. I'm being SO lazy today. So much work to do, so little being done...

Does anyone else google images of people at the same stage in pregnancy to compare bump sizes?

no?

just me then....

it has been known, when I was popping out of my trousers at about week 6, and YOB insisted I wasn't changing...

Fanks for the expert perspectives on the programme, carrots and pony. You are both v. sensible. I'm looking up independent midwives now (possibly slightly premature but like to be prepapred!)