We will BROOK NO ARGUMENT on having serene, pain free, uncomplicated pregnancies and sneeze births! Vol 8

[ScreamIfYouWantToGoFaster]

Hello ladies! I can't wait to see how many No Brooking babies arrive during the course of this thread!! Do you realise we have now filled SEVEN threads (and that's just the graduates!) That's 7000 posts and counting!

Let's all get settled in for some serious No Brooking, we have a lot of painless sneeze births to get through over the next couple of weeks!

Lots better today thanks, I've even had my porridge

Going to try and eat smaller amounts and take it easy a bit today. DH is on the DIY today though, so I just have to chase DS about and get the place tidied up a bit.

Definitely finding the last few weeks a bit harder when I can't just come home from work and go to sleep - I went for a lie down last night and all I could hear was a wee voice asking to see Mummy. He did come through and 'look after' me with kisses and cuddles!

tummy is still really sticky out so I have no idea where baby is!

Glad things have calmed down a bit pomme, amazingly DS still stays in bed till we come and get him when he shouts, it's only been 3 months in the bed however, so we'll see how long it takes him to figure out there's nothing stopping him!

Woo for house signing musical, hope you have a nice lunch too. We are meeting the in-laws this evening and I just feel a bit ginormous for going out!

Morning all,

Hope Dream is feeling better today.

Jaggy glad you're on the mend but sorry it's all so tiring. Does DS still nap at all? Any chance of 40 winks later today?

Musical yay for signing the house contract . And two (ish) weeks left at work ain't long - keep powering on. I am also devoid of any creative talent so am in awe of you getting a piece picked up - tres impressive!

Pomme glad you had a slightly more genteel start to the day (even if it was a bit early!)

Scarlet how are the builders going? Hopefully they are getting near the end now?

Ninja, how was the house valuation?

Hope everyone else is ok?

So, thank you all for your concern for my fanjo . It is definitely improving gradually so your brooking is definitely working wonders. I think it is all not helped by wearing horrid maternity pads all the time so everything is a bit warm and minging. If I could walk around au naturel down there I'm sure it would all heal quicker, but that is unlikely to happen!

Last night was a bit of a night here at Biscuit towers. We are demand feeding with Ethan, but the MWs say not to let them go more than 5-6 hours (completely fair enough). So 2:15 he wakes up, but is wet through because I buggered up putting his nappy on and left his willy pointing sideways so we sorted that out. Then just about to feed and he had the most terrifying coughing for where he couldn't get his breath. We were properly panicking. Fortunately DH was up too changing the crib sheets etc for me. He just seemed to be coughing up this horrible frothy mucus but his face was bright red etc. very very scary. So we got through that and he got his breath back. Then he sounded like his nose was all blocked up, which I thought might be a result of the coughing so we got our nasal aspirator thing and got a load of frothy snot out of his nose. He seemed fine after all that (thankfully).

However, he was totally uninterested in feeding by now so he ended up going from about 10:45pm to 5am with no feeding. And whenever we tried to latch him on he just doesn't latch on properly. So I found the whole thing a lot bit stressful .

Even now, he is going a long time between feeds which I'm a bit worried about as its not like he has a long gap and then a huge feed. He still only has quite a short feed. I'm a bit worried about what Monday's weigh in will show .

Oh and Scream - what a blardy hopeless bf session that sounds like. Well done you for pushing on the likely problems. Of nothing else it might give her a bit to think about before she does another session?

I would say though, make sure you know what other bf resources are available in your area aside from the NCT if she's not much good. Internet advice is marvellous but sometimes there is no substitute for someone actually watching what you're doing if there is a problem. So forewarned is forearmed if there are other groups that offer support locally for you.

Musical, congratulations on the music! Sounds like you might be on the verge of a breakthrough.

Jaggy and Musical, kudos to you both for still being at work with the BH and general uncomfiness. Yay for 2 weeks left apiece!

Dream, hope you're feeling a bit better and less pukey. Has Twin 2 been wriggling well?

Ok, different MW was here today (let's call her MW A for ease of ranting) and Maia has put on another 50g in 2 days, yay! So grand total of 70g gain in 3 days, which is excellent.

However, on the subject of conflicting advice, I just want to unburden myself about the bloody positioning/latching malarky. And the jaundice.

Hospital MWs (all different): Put her on the boob for 10 minutes, then swap breasts. Try feeding lying down. Don't sit up too straight or you'll hurt yourself (post-section). Stuff more nipple in her mouth (Tbf, this has been a constant right through). She's a little jaundiced but not very badly.

MW M (my community MW, who I really like): Sit bolt upright and put Maia on a stack of pillows at the level of the breast. Nose to nipple, big wide mouth, hand on the back of her neck and guide her onto the breast. Don't lean forward into her - this is called posting and it's bad. If it hurts, count to 10 and then take her off if it still hurts. She's really quite yellow, though...I'm a little worried but she's not symptomatic - she's alert and seems quite well. Feed her every 3 hours, definitely don't leave her for longer than 4 hours, stay on one boob so she gets foremilk and hindmilk and anything above 10 minutes is good.

MW M also turns out to have calculated the weight loss wrong - Maia actually lost 12%, not just over 10%! She's now made that up to 9.9%.

MW A: Sit leaning back slightly, get rid of the pillows, take hold of Maia by the back of her neck, nose to nipple so her neck is extended slightly, then use your other finger to poke the nipple into her mouth. Swap to the other boob after 10 mins - at this stage, she just needs fluids, forget about hindmilk/foremilk and concentrate on boosting your supply. 3 hours from the start of a feed, not the end (I didn't realise that - I thought it was intervals of 3 hours!). Don't feed her for longer than 30-40 mins altogether or she'll get tired. Express (by hand or by pump) and top her up with 20-30mls after every feed using a syringe. There doesn't seem to be any issue with your supply and she's feeding well. She is quite jaundiced...I might pop back tomorrow with the bilimeter...she's alert, though. Hmm, now she's sleepy (20 minutes later!)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Is it too much to ask to be given the same bloody advice from the HCPs? Oh sh*t, it's 11.50 and I have to go try to wake her up.

Oh Too you poor thing - I know exactly what you mean! Especially the 'in hospital' but where every time you buzz you get totally different advice and they manhandle you until the baby is latched on but so you never actually learn how to do it yourself .

Because E didn't lose as much weight we haven't had to have so many visits but I am wondering all the same thing as you - how long to leave between feeds if he doesn't demand, when should I swap boobs, should I carry on on the same one next time etc. it's so blooming confusing! E only ever eats for about 10 mins and I have zero hope of getting him to latch in again to anything after that, even if he's awake.

This is the thing with bf, you just can't tell what's going in!

HOWEVER!!!! Little Maia has put on 70g in 3 days! That's AWESOME!!!! And the most important thing i guess at this stage is that her weight is going upwards so you're doing the right things! We'll all get there!!! In these early days it seems so hard but you're doing brilliantly!

too - great news on the weight!! What position/tactic have you been using over the last two days? My tactic would be to stick to that! Never heard of posting before- reckon I do that sometimes.

biscuits - sometimes it is just impossible to feed them, you can't open their mouths for them! I know a girl whose small baby slept six hours over night from the get go and he was absolutely fine and she fed until 7 months. Abbie sleepier today (post growth spurt??) and went nearly 4 hours between feeds this am for the first time ever. My boobs leaked like mad for the last hour!

Too my recommendation would be to leave her on the boob for as long as she likes, it is the fattier milk towards the end of the feed that puts the weight on. I would also see if you can put her to the breast 2 hourly, which indeed may mean only an hour or so break between feeds, sorry. :(

As for latching, baby does need a good mouthful of breast as well as nipple here are a couple of links. La leche league Kelly mom hopefully this will help. The thing with positioning and attachment is that the guidance has changed recently and that there is so many ways of feeding your baby hence the variation in HCPs response. I am not sure if this is relevant but if you are struggling to get more areola/breast in the latch perhaps try a sandwich latch. Out of the all the responses given the one I would absolutely ignore is take baby off the breast after 10 mins!!! It is good to wind baby and then offer the other breast once she has come off naturally.

Biscuits if Ethan is going so long between feeds, I really would be expressing. In the two weeks after birth, simply put

Ooooo my pretty shiny pram has finally arrived!

Purple the bf counsellor briefly acknowledged that hand expressing exists (only in response to a question from one of the other preggos) but gave no indication of how to do it. I understand not wanting to dwell on potential problems and scare people, but I think to repeatedly say "it doesn't hurt at all - or you're doing it wrong" will create false expectations for people who suddenly get to day 3 and have super painful breasts and no idea why! Similarly if you warn people that blocked ducts are a possibility, then when they feel a lump they can just massage it out and hopefully it'll be a non-issue. If you don't mention it at all, and then it turns into mastitis unnecessarily, more people will end up giving up bfing earlier than they wanted to. She just seemed hugely judgemental (i.e. any pain is all your own fault!).

You're right about there being lots of other sources of support available in the area though. I'm not too worried because my imw includes 6 weeks of postnatal support, which starts off daily and then decreases to whatever frequency you need. So I'm sure she can get us off to the best start bfing-wise. My Mum says she had no problems bfing my siblings and I, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed it runs in the family!!

How is everything going with your little man? Hugo is a gorgeous name, do let us know if you settle on that for definite. Are you enjoying life as a Mum-of-2?

Biscuits yay for the speedy fanjo healing! Interesting thought about going au naturel to help things along. I keep wondering if I'll end up doing that after the csection to get maximum air to the incision. My house is always super warm, so keeping the wound locked up under tight/supportive clothing I think could be detrimental. On the other hand I can't imagine being confident enough about my post-baby figure to strut around naked!

Hooray for Musical signing the house contract!! Very exciting!! DH and I are already getting upset at the idea of having to leave our perfectly located mini-house and move to a crappier area to get more space :( It's so exciting that you've managed to find a house that is bigger and better and generally perfect for you!

Too all that advice sounds a little mind-blowing!!! Personally if I was you I'd be inclined to follow Pomme's example and only listen to Purple!

Dream how goes the wriggling? Also did you decide to make any plans for a potential early delivery? Hope you're feeling less stressed about it all, you've got both your boys to such a good stage of development and great weights, whatever happens it'll turn out fine and we will all brook no argument on that!

Jaggy I hope you feel better soon, poor you! Not long to go at work now though!!

Apologies to anyone I've missed. Is it just me or is it getting harder to keep up with all the news!?!

Yay for a new shiny pram Scream

Did you go for an iCandy or have I totally made that up?

It is indeed a pretty shiny red iCandy Peach Biscuits . (Thanks for asking so I have an excuse to talk about it more! Hee hee!)

Too I was thinking about the conflicting advice you were given about either trying to get Maia to have the hindmilk, or not worrying about the hindmilk and trying to just get fluids into her.

I'm not sure, but is it because there are 2 competing issues being the weight gain and the jaundice. They always talk about 'flushing out' the jaundice so maybe the mw that said about 'needing fluid' was thinking more about clearing the jaundice rather than gaining weight (which understandably would require the fatty hindmilk to work best)?

Not that that really helps because it's still conflicting advice, but it might explain (maybe?) why they were telling you different things?

As pomme says though, Maia is gaining weight so you're doing something right - I'd stick with that

The other thing you could think about, rather than having to rely on different advice from each different mw that comes through, would be to get in contact with a local support group? Maybe like the NCT bf counsellor or if there are local support groups. You might find that way you could get one person to give you ongoing help, so that way you'd be getting consistent advice and they'd know what you'd tried before etc? And they'd be able to physically check positioning and attachment etc.

I'm thinking of maybe doing that to look at this mouth opening thing. As pomme says you just can't make them open their mouths!

Purple, on the expressing thing I haven't been because it isn't every time that he goes that long - often he'll go 2 hours, or maybe 3, and then just throws in one really long gap to keep me on my toes! Therefore I daren't express because I never know if he might be about to feed iyswim?

I might be totally stressing out about nothing though because I don't even know if he's putting on weight or not

Scream I would be tempted to complain about that teacher myself! So pleased you can get good support from your IMW! Oh and your Mum having no probs is a great sign, things like tongue tie are hereditary :)

You too will find the perfect house we will brook on that! Buyers market and all :)

Lovely, having a shiny new pushchair, I am a bit of a pram hun

He is gorgeous, cosleeping... I didn't want to until I bought a new bed, but he sleeps next to me for up to two hours, whereas he gets cold/windy after about 30 mins in his moses. So no brainer for me atm! Oh and his cord dropped off today, I thought that didn't happen for awhile yet.

Biscuits I had a warm salt bath and a night sleeping on a towel when my graze was a bit sore, it definitely helped!

Biscuits you can still express, your breasts constantly make milk, so expressing encourages more milk to be made, it doesn't use it up. Sorry if I have misunderstood there :)

Oh should also say it is 8-12 feeds in a day so one longer gap might be ok if this is being reached.

hi

super quick as dd super demanding, dh left house 6:30am back 8pm on a course.

twin 2 not highly reassuring, but I think he's squirming a little. Def going to go for monitoring monday if not before (if doesn't move a bit more). Going to order travel cot with basinette level for them to sleep in, but overall, think more likely scan error than baby not growing so early delivery unlikely. Not been sick today Do have very uncomforatble BH again though. And slightly upset tummy (as in its a bit upset, but only first thing in morning... wierd for me). Symptom spotting for early labour and movement watch driving me potty

yay for iCandy scream, will look forward to more details

Yay for a super-talented no-brooker

and indeed, thank goodness for purple

sorry, gopt to get backt to dd, back later xx

oh- but disaster morning other morning pomme, i'd probably have had a hormonal meltodown when let back in by dh!!! glad better today

I hope I don't miss anything, I've only been away for a day but it seems like there's so much news to catch up on.

Musical fantastic news about the house and even better about your work I'm not creative in the slightest, I think you've either got it or you haven't and it certainly sounds like you have. I got to grade 5 on piano before giving up after discovering boys

*Too well done for Maia's weight gain, that's fantastic news. Very annoying re the conflicting advice though, I remember that well.

Biscuits I'm so pleased things seem to be healing better downstairs now. Sounds like you had a scary time in the night, I would totally freak out. Ah yes the nasal aspirator. AKA "THE SNOTERATOR" in this house. Grim. It's one of those things that you'd struggle to believe pre children, but sucking snot out of your baby's nose with your mouth seems entirely normal when you have a baby with a cold!

Pomme I hope you're having a better day today, you certainly did deserve a drink last night after that!

Happy 17th Birthday to Wants DS

jaggy/dream my baby is still transverse also. I can feel exactly where it's head is. I've spent all week trying to get it to move with no joy. Getting some nasty kicks in my cervix as it's whole body is laying across but then it's legs and feet are curled back and dangling downwards. Also getting terrible acid reflux and indigestion in the night and feeling really sick again after eating.

Scream that NCT class sounds shite. Excuse my language, but really, how on earth is that supposed to help anyone? Basically saying that if it deosn't go completely smoothly then you must be doing it all wrong

My news... I've managed to find a way to swallow the RLT without thinking about about how awful every mouthful is. Have cake or chocolate at the same time. It's been working wonders and I'm now managing 2 cups per day , I may even increase to 3 next week. DH and I are out this evening for the last time before the baby arrives. I just hope I can stay awake as I've struggled all week on only 3 hours sleep per night.

TMI question? Is anyone else's bowels doing really weird things in the night? I get up for a wee, but end up doing a number 2 without having had any feeling that I needed one and no control over it whatsoever. It's happened the last 3 nights on the go at about 4am. It's not diarrhoea either so I can't understand it

Sorry if I've missed anyone, hope you're all ok and having a lovely weekend.

Purple I know that you're always making more milk but I was worried in case I expressed and he literally wanted feeding straight away - surely I couldn't make it that quick?

On and on the bottom thing, I have (very attractively) been sleeping with my bum out at night, knees bent up with a cushion between them as if for an examination . Or at least for as long as I can stand it - it's parky with my bum out of bed! I must be such an attractive bed companion just now

That's interesting about 8-12 feeds a day. I've never heard that before. We managed 8 on tue and Wed and 7 on Thu and Fri. I'm currently on feed 4 today so might get 7 in if I'm lucky? Doubt we'll get 8 in today

Cross posts Scarlet

Sounds like you've nailed the RLT - like your tactics a lot there and hope you have a lovely time out with your DH tonight - enjoy it! Hope you don't fall asleep in your soup though

Sounds very ouchie this transverse baby malarky - I am sending some brooking vibes to all those transverse babies to jolly well get turned round, head down, and stop making life so uncomfortable for your mummies!

And Dream? Just for your DH being out for such a long day - that totally sucks

Do I wake her up or don't I? She looks so peaceful. Me me me, sorry, but hand expressing and syringe feeding was a nightmare - managed 15mls but it took DH ages to get it into her and quite honestly I think she'd have expended less energy feeding quietly from me. I want to cry. DH liking the expressing because then you can quantify what goes in. I wound up having to go straight in the shower because there was milk all over me and the sofa. My aim isn't very good.

Good to hear that Dream is feeling a bit better! :) It's a shame twin 2 isn't being a bit more overt in his movements, I'm sure it's all fine but getting monitored on Monday to put your mind at rest also sounds like a great plan!

Yay for everything going well with Purple's little man. I can easily imagine us defaulting into cosleeping as well, because we have the bedside cot alongside my side of the bed, and at 3 am I'm probably just as likely to leave the baby next to me after a feed rather than bothering to scoot her back over into the cot!

Hee hee hee over Biscuits' new sleeping position! I can just imagine what my DH will say if I end up doing something similar! Oh the glamour of having babies!

Scarlet I hope your LO shifts position ASAP! Sounds like it's pretty uncomfortable in the current position :( Keep plugging away at it and the baby will move soon!

Also, just a quick q about RLT. I know it's primarily used to strengthen your uterus muscle (and therefore helps with the second stage of labour) but is there any point in taking it if you're expecting a cs? I was wondering if it might help the uterus to contract back into shape after the operation? My fibroids will get in the way of my uterus contracting after the birth (whether it's vb or cs) which is why I have an increased risk of postpartum haemorrhage. I was wondering therefore if I should start drinking RLT as well?

biscuits DS does still nap for about 2 hours after lunch, but he's picked today to totally resist it! he's only just fallen asleep half an hour ago after messing about for ages. daddy had to go through and do special stories with his favourite cuddly toys as the characters before he gave in. he was a bit overtired and nuts and actually ran into a doorframe and bashed his head before i got him to bed.

purple i knew where baby was after my appointment as MW was really good at telling us where the bum, back etc was lying. a bit confused after the last couple of days wriggling, so will have a look at spinning babies again. i think i got confused last time i read it.
still getting a few bhs, I've read that you get more and stronger ones in 2nd pgs (Dr Google) i don't think i noticed them till on mat leave last time.

hope your dd has a wee nap too dream, sounds like an awfy long day. :(

a lot of the milk is actually made as baby feeds i think, so ethan should be fine.:)

Just got back from a quick dog walk between rain showers. I hope it wasn't too wet in Brighton as DS1 is spending the day there with his friends. Should be home in time for a curry en famille later. ( only homemade though not takeaway:( )
All you bfers seem to be doing a grand job. You will eventually find the way that suits you and baby best, even if it is different from the way someone else does it. I fed my boys pretty much on demand from day 1, ds1 would feed for up to an hour and then sleep in short bursts, ds2 fed for about 10-15mins and then sleep for several hours. I never woke them to feed, especially at night and learning to feed laying down was the best thing I ever did. I never really got on with expressing but will be trying again this time in prep for returning to work eventually.
jaggy bhs are definately stronger and more frequent 3rd time around!
( don't remember them First 2times)

Enjoy your family birthday celebration Wants - hope it goes well. And thanks re the bf thing too - I think this is why there is so much contradictory advice around because ultimately it's going to be different for each mummy / baby pairing so as you say it's just a matter of working out how to make it work for you. We'll all get there but I have to say I really do value all the support you lovely ladies have given us

all round xx

Jaggy, I could feel BH clearly this time but not at all the first time.

Wants, I would love to learn feeding lying down! Except then I would wake up as Bean fell off the bed, probably.

Scream, yay for the shiny new pram!

Biscuits, at the sexy sleeping position. Is it helping? Our house is currently so hot that I am basically sleeping naked except for giant Bridget Jones knickers and nursing bra, with only a token corner of duvet pulled over me. The MW said Maia would get cold, so we may have gone a little too far in the other direction. This morning the MW turned up outside our bedroom window at 9am, and I am not convinced that she didn't see stark naked DH sprawled on the bed before he hurriedly shut the curtains and leaped for some pants. I was tastefully covered in the aforementioned underwear and a pillow, as was feeding at the time. Curse MWs who just say they'll be out 'in the morning'! I realise that it is weird to lounge around naked with the curtains open in a bungalow, but it was first thing, we were both a bit dozy from lack of sleep and we'd opened the curtains to let in the sunlight for Maia's jaundice.

Ouch to the transverse babies, Scarlet, Dream and Jaggy. Get those heads down, babies!

Scarlet, haven't tried sucking snot out of Maia's nose yet , but have licked her eyelids to remove dried-on milk gently. Like a cat cleaning its kitten. The things we do!

Poor Dream. I am so massively relieved not to be having to do movement-watch all day and night any more. Not much longer, honey - hang in there!

Purple, Maia's cord dropped off 3 days ago and I was really surprised. I thought it would stay on longer too. I have done a little bit of co-sleeping - I did it in the hospital, and I've done some at home, but she is currently sleeping pretty well in her Moses basket. I have a lambskin under her and it seems to keep her nice and cosy (and the website claims they prevent cot death in some way ). Poor DH woke up in the middle of the night and started rummaging about in the covers frantically and said 'I can't find her!' He'd dreamed that he had fallen asleep holding her and lost her in the bed.

Ok, feel slightly calmer after another feed. Have decided to ignore the advice about taking her off the boob after 10 mins/only feeding for 30-40 mins max. If she still has a death-grip on my nipple and wants to stay there then I'm not messing with her. Tried sticking my finger into her mouth to dislodge her when her latch slipped and was stunned at the sheer power of her suck! Also, my efforts at hand-expressing only yielded 6mls, so we decided to put that in the fridge and do a top-up at the next feed when we had enough to make it worthwhile. Have been on Amazon and ordered Medela breast shells to catch any leaks for recycling, to be delivered on Monday. Dad and stepmother have bought me a breast pump and steriliser and are en route as we speak, so I'll have a go with that.

Question: now that we have a new shiny post-natal thread, should all these feeding/sleeping/nappy-related questions go there? Should this one be reserved for pregnancy only queries?

too I think all questions could be asked on either thread as 1st,2nd and 3rd timers would be able to add their advice about own experiences. I know I would forget which thread I posted a question on! I am going to have a peek at new thread soon so I know where to go in 9 weeks time :)