Lost our little girl... why???

[jangus]

I'm new to this. On the 14th March I went in to be induced at 9days over, they told me I was the least favourable to go into labour out of the three of us that arrived and I was given a pessary. After an hour they put a monitor and after a while noticed blips with the baby?s heartbeat and I was having regular contractions. I stayed on the monitor for a couple of hours and was then moved through to the labour ward. When I got there they decided that because I was not dilated at all and they couldn?t break my waters I would have to go for a section, so I was prepped. I was given an inhaler to stop the contractions and then a doctor came said that he would leave us for another hour and see if things settled down. he came back said things looked better and I was taken back to the other ward. I was left from about 10pm that night and no one looked near me until 10am the next morning because the doc on duty was called to theatre. When I was put on the monitor the baby?s heart rate was sitting around 150 (the previous day it was 140). I was examined at about 11.45am and told that nothing had changed but there were still dips in the baby?s heartbeat all morning. At 12.10 I was told that I was going through to the labour ward and told to phone my husband. At 12.30 there were a couple of big dips and my notes were taken to the doc and he sent back word that I would have a section at 2pm. At 1pm there was a big dip and the doc was sent for, he came in, looked at the scan and said that the section would still be a 2pm as the baby had recovered from the dip. At 1.31pm her little heart stopped. They said sorry and we are left totally devastated and lost without her..... How can we recover from this?

jangus, thinking of you. I really hope you get some answers. We will all be there with you in spirit. XXX

Jangus - I have just read through this thread and am so sad about your loss

Can I say that as midwife I have questions about your care.

You mentioned that the Lilli-Mae had never engaged. Was any of her head in the pelvis or do you mean it was completely free? In a first baby that can be a sign that the baby will not pass through the pelvis. Prostin should not be given when the head is not engaged at all.

Did you have a CTG before you got the pessary? You should have to make sure the baby was OK before induction started.

I cannot understand why you were given medication to stop the contractions and not delivered by C/S straight away.

I also cannot understand why your GP was not informed of your loss. We inform the community midwife and GP whenever there has been the loss of a baby.

Although nothing is going to bring Lilli-Mae back, the knowledge that the hospital will examine their procedures to prevent this happening again to someone else may help. I hope you find the strength for your meeting on Thursday. Take care, mears.

Posted on your member profile thread jangus.

I think of you a lot and wish I could do something to help. God bless.

jangus, obviously the meeting on Thursday will be stressful beyond belief.

I know it is an intensely private affair for you and your husband, but I wonder if you should perhaps take someone with you who can act as your advocate and make sure that the questions Mears has suggested do get asked. Do you have anybody who could go with you?

Mears... Lilli-Mae was free... i can remember that was in my notes. I didn't have a ctg before the pessary.
Maybe you would be able to answer this. My Mum is quite little about 5'2". When she was 5 months pregnant with her first child her doctor examined her and said that he couldn't know how she ever got pregnant never mind how she would ever be able to give birth. she was told that she would be having a c-section. she ended up having 4 sections (sterilised after 3, then fell pregnant again... yes same hospital!).
could I be the same? do you know what it is called if you don't/can't dilate.
xxx thanks
jangus

Oh yes, jangus. Maybe Mears has a contact in Northern Ireland? Or maybe SANDS could help you find a sympathetic advocate in a professional capacity.
Dd (my third pregnancy and second live birth) failed to engage at term and it was Mears' firm and gentle insistence that this was a proper risk to the baby, that warranted an elective, which made me finally decide to give up on a VBAC. If only all midwives were like Mears.
This issue has therefore always niggled at me re yours and Lilli-Mae's care and you really do deserve some answers.

my sister in law is a doctor and she said that she would go with us, but I'm scared that he might feel un-nerved if we bring another doctor with us. He would know of her, as he trained to be a doctor with her Dad. But, she is very level headed and sensible and would be able to talk through everything with us again at the end.
hard to know what to do. it would also be very tough on her. Her first wee daughter was just born in Jan.

What's her specialism jangus - does she specialise in obstetrics? Have you discussed what happened with her so far - and if so what has she said?

She is a GP. She came up to the hospital the day we lost Lilli-Mae, I know that she found it very hard since she just had her wee girl (my parents first two grandchildren were just 8 weeks apart) and we had made so many plans for them to grow up together.
But, she would know the terms and she would be able to maybe pick up on things that we could miss.

Jangus
I am so sorry for your loss. If your SIL has agreed to accompany you, and you are comfortable with it, it might be good to have her along. If it makes the consultant nervous, well, that's his problem, not yours. He has a duty to report to you what happened. If he has a problem discussing that in the company of colleagues, he's in the wrong profession.

It is, as you say, hard to know what to do. I suppose I am a little bit concerned that (a) she is a bit too close to you and will understandably be upset and affected by what has happened and (b) she might not be as good at probing for the answers as more independent and experienced advocate might be.

Listen, are you in email contact with bubble - I think I saw that you are? If so, why not contact her and ask her what she thinks?

I do realise that the last thing you probably feel like doing at the moment, and especially as time is short, is going out and looking for an independent advocate.

Totally agree about it being tough luck if the consultant is nervous about your SIL being there. Good, say I. It's not his beautiful child who was stillborn. So glad you have her with you, and her perspective as a mum will be helpful too because she has been through birth herself.

I do agree with expatinscotland - if the consultant is nervous - well, he jolly well ought to be, frankly.

Jangus, I thinking having your SIL with you both would really help, as I'm sure you're going to find it so hard to listen to everything they have to say, your SIL could talk to you after the meeting, she may well remember more than you can at this very upsetting, emotional meeting. Sending you love and support

I know one thing's for sure, we do need someone to be in with us. We are going to try and hold it together, but there is a good chance we could fall apart. We need to make sure that we get some answers. I don't want to be coming out and thinking, I wish I'd said this or that.

Jangus
I haven't posted on here before. I am so very sorry about Lilli-mae.

I wonder whether a good approach would be to ask for a follow up meeting with the consultants. So treat Thursday as a meeting for you to get their side of the story. Then you can go away, think about it and come back with questions if anything does not make sense to you. I think you'll be under enough pressure on Thursday without the additional worry of wondering whether you'll miss something or feeling you've missed your chance to make a point.
I'll be thinking of you on Thursday Jangus.

I think puddle's idea is excellent.

Jangus - in answer to your question, there is no one single factor that will say whether a woman will be able to progress in labour. Even though your mum had C/S deliveries it does not automatically mean that you would. However, that said, you are only 5'2'' and the head was not engaged. Your mum di dhave C/S too. That was not a good starting point. You need the pressure of the baby's head on the cervix to help it dilate.

I agree that your SIL may be a good person to go with you. She knows medical terminology and you trust her. She will know the kind of questions you have and will be able to prompt you if she thinks you have forgotton to ask.

sorry mears... i didn't make myself clear. My Mum is only 5'2". I'm huge in comparison at 5'8"ish.

Well that certainly begs the question, why was the head not engaged? If your pelvis was adeqate, the head should have been engaged.

A first baby will not engage if it is too big,the pelvis is too small,baby in a posterior position, if the cord is short (perhaps wrapped round baby), too much water round the baby. If there is an obstruction such as placenta praevia or some kind of grwoth like a fibroid.

These are the questions that the doctor/midwife should think about when coming across this situation.

jangus, my second preg with dd1 was completely mismanaged and nearly resulted in the death of my dd at birth, i had already hada stillbirth and went for a scan at 40 weeks plus 2, the scan showed that my baby had not engaged and was a face presentation(instead of head flexed in, baby's head is turned outwards) meaning it would be impossible for her to be delivered naturally, yet amazingly I was sent home and allowed to go into labour naturally, when I arrived at the hospital i was fully dilated and pushing, but made no progress, i was left to push for 3 hours!!!! before the midwife called for a senior midwife to intervene, she gaveme an internal and proclaimed loudly, oh my god im poking this baby's eyes out, the consultant rushed in , rebeccas heartrate dissapeared from the trace and she was delivered, very quickly by forceps. i was just releived to have a healthy baby, but the consequences have hit hard, i was told in subsequent pregs that my deformed kidneys could prevent descent into the pelvis and after that was always scanned to check baby was descending properly, i was also told that rebecca should have been delivered by c-section and that she could have died(she suffered deep transverse arrest)i wasd also left with a prolapsed pelvic floor at the age of 18 from 3 hours of trying to push her out, i could have complained but chose not to, at the time i was young and just wanted to get on with life, i was pleased to have a live baby at last, but i do have flashbacks to the event 14 years later.im a nurse not a midwife but if your baby was completely free in the pelvis then they need to investigate why, you could have a small pelvis etc,or like in my case the baby might not have been in the position to engage, first baby's normally engage up to 4 weeks prior to labour but subsequent baby's dont often engage until labour begins, im amazed that you were induced when your baby was not engaged, i have been induced 3 times and they alwaystold me that the baby must have moved down into the brim of the pelvis at least a little bit, I was always about 3/5 or 2/5 when i was induced.they always perform a ctg trace before they start labour off and then they put you on thr ctg for an hour after each prostin gel has been inserted, did they do that with you at all??. I would recommend taking your SIL along as she explain any ,medical jargon thats used, you are perfectly entitled to take a 3rd party along, jangus, i cant begin to imagine how you are feeling at the mo but am sending lots of {{hugs}}}

sorry for long winded post btw

just posted on your member profile, your little girl is truly an angel, have had to compose myself..I am so so sorry that you are going through this, if it can make me cry god only knows what you are going through.

Hi Spacecadet, I can't believe that you had to cope with so much at such a young age. I am 27 now and I think I am too young to have to deal with anything... having a traumatic birth at 18 must have been terrible, you must be strong to have come through it, although to have your dd at the end of it must have helped.
From what you are saying I now have some more questions for tomorrow. i need to ask they didn't put me on the ctg before they gave me the pessary, they did examine me because she made the comment that I was the least favourable out of the three of us there to be induced. An hour after I was given the pessary I was put on the ctg. They said I would just be on for 20 mins, but then things didn't look right from the start so I just stayed on it... and then was moved to labour ward and prepped for a section.
I have thought about her not being engaged since this all happened. I think that the reason she didn't drop was because she was so tangled up in the cord, it was around her neck twice and under her arm once.
Do you know anything about the 3D scanners? If they had one in the hospital... would they have been able to see were the cord was?? Would it have made a difference??