DH committed suicide on Saturday, rang Samaritans, not helped.

[RubbishMantra]

Anyone there? I 'm a bit done in. We'd been married less than 2 years. I got him a dollar bill folded into an origami carp for our 1st anniversary. He hanged himself. We didn't have DCs, but we have 2 beautiful cats. Sister flying in tomorrow. I don't know how he could leave me and our 2 little lads (cats)

Hope you had a reasonable day, Mantra.

Not the best day cozie. I sent tsm an image of the urn I've chosen for DLH, the one she thought was "overpriced".

She replied with "It looks very unusual Mantra, will look nice in a lounge or any room." Then a long paragraph demanding I scan documents re. their flat abroad. Then a paragraph about how flabbergasted her neighbours are at how nice her "gardens" are, and that she has so much to do. Then another paragraph about the stuff they want me to do re. their flat.

I'm so looking forward to going NC. I'm at the verge of telling her to go fuck herself actually. Get someone else to sort their mess out.

...will look nice in a lounge... Oh My.

(But give it a couple of months and she'll have been the one who specially commissioned the artist to make it - in the face of your uncaring recalcitrance - because he was 'like a son to her'.)

Your call on whether you tell her to go screw herself. I wouldn't blame you in the least because she's nigh on unbearable - even at the distance she is. I do think that even if you continue, you'll have to draw a very firm line indeed once it's sold or she'll be after you for any and all sorts of further chores.

Don't tell, let them see, or send anything personal. That's your first rule. I mean, really, it's a rule.

You won't believe me until you stop, so it's fine to think I'm being OTT right now. I'm pretty sure I am not.

Nope. You're not, Cory - and that's even now. Best to treat them most guardedly right away even if you decide to continue to help with the sale.

Although, to be honest, they sound so self-satisfied and self-centred that they might not even notice that everything was about them and nothing about Mantra.

I've emailed tsm a photo of a penis in a shoe. Satisfying indeed.

I've had enough of her vicious ridiculousness.

She hates penises, and anything to do with sex, vair repressed. Can't even say the word poo. Calls it Big Toilet.

And yup, you're both right. Every time I let a bit of my very raw and skinned self be exposed to them, their reaction just feels as if they're scrabbling over themselves to get the salt and pepper to slap onto the rawness.

And I know I speak a lot about losing DLH on here, but whenever I telephone them, I ask them, how are their lives, how are you? I'm mindful to not just whinge on at them about my sadness. I try to talk to her about happy stuff about DLH, but she just interrupts me about gossip about her neighbours.

I feel your pain, Mantra. While my own mother wasn't as bad as yours, some memorable comments stand out:
• When my fiancé fucked off with someone else - "oh it's like when I lost the baby" - no. No, it really isn't. There can be no comparison.
• When my sister's feckless ex DH fucked off with a woman old enough to be his mother - "it's such a shame neither you nor your sister had children before they left you, at least you'd have someone now"
• On showing her my 10w scan for DS1 - "Oh no, now I'll have six grandchildren" - I mean seriously, wtf kind of response is that?!

It's an awful thing to think, but I'm actually not that sorry she's not around any more to say any more of those things - she really wasn't as bad as your TSM, but she was horrifyingly self-absorbed and without much empathy really. I do think even she would have been better than your TSM in your situation though - she certainly wouldn't have been so callous.

As the others said - stop exposing your soft underbelly for her to stick pins into - just present the hard shell whenever you do have to have contact with her, protect yourself first and foremost. xx

"whenever I telephone them, I ask them, how are their lives, how are you? I'm mindful to not just whinge on at them about my sadness"

To be honest, Mantra, it would be completely normal and natural if you phoned them every day and sobbed for hours down the line. Because YOU are the centre of this - you are the one with support needs, with trauma, with heartbreak. You shouldn't have to be bloody mindful of their wellbeing right now - and the fact that you are is testament to your total unselfishness and your strength. That they don't even allow you the space to talk about the happy stuff is, frankly, abusive. I honestly am so disgusted with their behaviour I can't find words. It is absolutely shocking.

Thumbwitches - for you too. You are so lovely and caring to everyone on this board that it's easy to think you must have had a life full of love. I'm so sorry to hear that's not been the case. It is unfair.

An American writer called John D Macdonald wrote a book - 'The Drowner', I think without looking - which contained a major character who had significant ishoos. (This is relevant so have patience with me.) She was actually shown some photos which would have been 'unsympathetic' to her and simply didn't see the content. She didn't see it.

I wouldn't at all mind laying a wager that your TSM will behave similarly with the shoe photo, Mantra - at any rate, I wouldn't expect any sort of response to it.

(I'm so sorry for your experiences, Thumb.)

Thanks Holly and cozie - Mum was, as I say, not really that bad - but I did also feel that I missed out on having a real motherly mum. Counselling helped me a lot. :)

... not really that bad...

Ouch.

It sometimes seems as if Mantra is trying to stir the 'relationship' with her TSPs - particularly the TSM - to get some/any reaction of regard. I just don't think that's going to happen and it must be a great sadness for her. (For all people that are in that situation in fact.)

I'm hoping that her own counselling will help, similar to your own experiences. She has a lot on her plate.

Thinking of you tonight.

Me too, M. Cozie I agree with you - M, you're trying and trying to get something out of them because it is normal to need it & would be normal if they gave it.

It's not going to happen. There lies the sadness of it. Sometimes the worse people are at providing normal emotion, the more you keep going back in the hope of finding it, but there's no point. The jug is empty; or rather the toilet bowl is.

cozie - I think those are very wise words about some people simply not seeing what it's inconvenient for them to see. I also think some people seem to take umbrage when presented with a situation that requires help or empathy to be offered. It's like they are offended with the person for revealing something deeply lacking in themselves, so they minimise, ignore and refuse to 'see' that person.

It is incredibly hurtful to be on the receiving end of such selfishness. But when set alongside the idea that affection ought to be 'normal', you can sort of see why long-suffering victims of these people feel like any contact, any crumb from the table (even a negative kick) is preferable to being ignored, because it is this thin kind of acknowledgement compared to the nothing of no contact. Of course, though, it's not really positive at all - in fact, it's really damaging and undermining to constantly get nothing but negativity from parents, whereas at least no contact brings some kind of stillness that isn't constantly agitated by narcissistic behaviour.

It sounds as though Mantra realises what is happening at a cerebral level, but just isn't ready to make that emotional break yet. Which is fine - sometimes it takes time for something you 'know' to sink right in. I guess this explains why so many people stay in abusive relationships far beyond the moment when they have acknowledged that their 'D'Ps behaviour isn't OK.

Thinking of you Mantra!!

Thinking of you this afternoon, Mantra.

How goes it, M.

It has turned autumnal in Clapham & Mr C is refusing to get out of bed. All I can see are two black ears sticking up above the Cath Kidston quilt, swivelling madly for sounds of pouch ripping. He has made the quilt & my (not his) duvet into a nest. I'm not allowed in. Me on sofa, wrapped in anorak.

I just want my mum to be nice to me. I just threw up in my dinner after the first mouthfull. Sorry, I know that's gross. But when I try to eat something my throat gets all constricted. She knew I had my first SoBs meeting today, but not even a text. I know it's my fault, for constantly exposing the soft underbelly.

fucking wish that cunt died in DLH's place. i really do. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY would mourn that bitter old cunt.

It's her fault for not caring for her children in a normal way.

How did the meeting go?.

She's missing a great chunk of something, Mantra and you can't find it and put it back. You'll always be dealing with a half person.

But Yes - how was the SoBS meeting? And have you seen your counsellor yet this week?

I think it was helpful. We all have the same questions for the people we're grieving for. But it seems there are no answers.

No, I don't think there are - at least none that someone is going to hand to you.

Was it good to be able to talk to people in a safe place though?

(Do they have subsidiary networks that might eg meet more often? I'm afraid I don't know much about their structure.)

I'm no longer seeing that counsellor. I was very mindful after our initial session, which he didn't charge me for, to ask about fees. When I texted for my next appointment, I was told I had to pay for it, in spite of the fact I'd already addressed that, so I sort of lost faith in them. Plus they offer counselling by text, at £1.50 per text. My personal feelings are that that's slightly unethical.