Nursery care is harmful - guilty parent here.

[fifitot]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/oliver-james-daycare-under-threes

Thanks Oliver.

The comments below are quite interesting though.

Riven you're amazing. I still think, going back to a thread a long, long time ago, that you should be writing a column in a newspaper.

Blimey, I seem to have upset a few people. Wasn't my intention but i feel quite strongly that we (men and women and not just women) who were brought up under thatcher have been conditioned to always want
want the best we can out of life. I also think that children get treated very badly by us as a society. I'm not saying that people don't need to work to keep a roof over their head or food on the g
table, but it strikes me that people are often too afraid to risk slipping down the career ladder or sacrificing their lifestyle to look after their own kids. Shoot me down in flames if you want but I get a bit fed up with being told by people that they would go nuts if they had to go to toddler groups every day and that they 'need to use their brain' only for the same people to suddenly claim they'd be homeless if they worked k
less when confronted with something that challenges their choices.

I'm materialistic about bringing up dd and i'm not ashamed. I'm quite aware that designer clothes etc probably contribute nothing to childhood but experiences do. I would like dd to be able to have lots of hobbies - dance/circus lessons, a pony if she so wishes, holidays to interesting/fun places. I was lucky enough to have all of those things and i would like to give them to dd.

I also feel i owe her finanacial security at home, money put aside for university/a car/help with a deposit for a flat when she is older - again i had those things and feel its my duty to at least try to provide them.

furthermore, dh and i will be saving toward him having 6 months to a year off work to stay at home with dd, probably the year before she starts school but he will also being able to take more time off anyway with me working part time. dh works away from home alot and misses dd terribly. yeh i could be a sahm but what would i be taking away from both dh and dd?

i never felt that i missed out. maybe its more about how emotionally available the parents are when they are at home. my mum and i are best friends and as close as we could be.

then again i went to boarding school as well later on - maybe i'm not the best controil subject for this discussion ;-)

Children always whinge about something though Riven. Individual differences and all that. There's no one size fits all answer to this, and Oliver James's suggestion that the research he so uncritically presents shows there is, is just misleading.

all back home.children been at nursery i have been at work. i wouldnt have it any other way.it is our routine and it suits us. it is good enough - i am content being good enough mum

i hope everyone else finds their balance too

after all we all make our individual choices.we all live with them too

Its nice to be able to provide our children with nice things, opportunities and experiences but should they not also grow up knowing that in order to have those things as an adult they have to work hard and save up and not just have family handouts

Bossyboop - she's probably just tired. My DD is knackered on her return from nursery as she does about 75% more than I could ever achieve in a day with her.

fifitot do you think this can apply to me also, maybe this is why im so irritable, have a short fuse and constantly searching for peace...!

Why are you fed up of hearing that, highlystrung? Maybe both things are true.

I intially put DS in nursery at 6mo, much earlier than I would have liked because I absolutely had to go back to work. At the time, I thought I wanted to be at home with him all the time. However, I've since discovered that I prefer to be out of the house a couple of days a week because I like my job. There is nothing wrong with enjoying using the skills you have spent time and effort developing.

I don't think this makes me a hypocrite, it's just something I've discovered about myself.

Bossyboop - yes I expect so! I so know what you mean.

hear hear at saf.

according to jo and his ilk i should be in prison by now!

Excellent post sAf. Go on, post it on the Guardian website.

Thanks swallowed you've made me feel a bit better.

I had to look up two words posters used in this debate - approbation and didactic...

I'm going back to work because I want to; I enjoy work; because I'm a more fun mum when I get a break... I didn't go to uni and study hard to then throw it away for several years... yes, i am guilty of putting myself and my career first in this respect. DS is one. I'm sure going back is not going to be easy for anyone in my family...

I think I've found a great CM, so fingers crossed it all works out. I am a stressed person so I will have to make the effort to go slower with my baby... So maybe I'm glad I read this post - against my better judgment - after all...

I spent time working in a private nursery in an affluent area, Daddys a doctor mummys a lawyer etc £180 a week full time and the children would leave to attend a same sex private school aged 3/4. And although in a nice area where property prices are sky high and fees are expensive, the staff didnt come from that area, they came from poor areas earning peanuts. I watched 3 and 4 year olds get 1 slice of banana and one cube of apple for dessert, slung onto the table amongst the mess made by their ravioli. I was there to observe what went on and what went on was kids struggling to chase a piece of tinned ravioli around a bowl that they clearly couldnt pick up with their cutlery then having the bowl took away assuming they had finished but they hadnt even eaten anything other than the odd mouthful of the tomato sauce and the 4 pieces of ravioli they had been given were still intact in their bowl. SO you cant really assume that because a setting was in a wealthy area with expensive fees that its going to be any good.

OJ is not very well regarded in science circles. He indulges in cherry picking, extrapolating data and running with it. As a psychologist he should know all about confirmation bias.

Here is the best critique of that particular article I?ve come across (and the site has also taken apart his schizophrenia comments)

neuroskeptic.blogspot.com/2010/05/does-oliver-james-damage-brain.html

That is not to say he doesn?t sometimes raise an interesting point. In fact my reading of Affluenza (it?s a really shite book) did crystallise my feelings on the issues of childcare to a degree when I was pregnant. It irritated me enough to make me think hard about what I wanted to do.

Luckily we both work in (fairly low paying) journalism but both our organisations are very flexible, so we are lucky enough to both work part time and share the care of our daughter, who is 19 months (I had 14 months off). In fact my husband works 2 days and I work three. I understand about sacrifice (as we are skint), and dithered for ages about leaving work completely, but the longer term picture (possible moving abroad again, school fees etc) mean that it?s better to keep my career on the boil. I would not be able to take three years off and rejoin.

But this way my DH has been able to be a part-time SAHD, which he relishes. He has effectively sent a signal to his boss that career isn?t number one for him either at this point, so in a way it may have harmed his longer term prospects, but there will always be something for him. So he also knows about sacrifice.

I loathe OJ though for his hypocrisy. Whingeing on about women seeking the ?wrong? sort of validation through work, or daring to get an education they may not use, or working simply to afford nice Smallbone kitchens or another car. While, erm, dashing off and leaving his kid for MONTHS at a time while he did research for populist book ? which he obviously aimed to be a high seller.

I just don?t understand that level of hypocrisy.

I?m sure he doesn?t live hand to mouth either so can afford to wax lyrical about selfish capitalism.

He is a colossal ache in the arsepipe © Charlie Brooker.

My children have all been to nursery no more than 12hrs/wk from being 10mts. Three of them are at secondary school and the fourth starts primary soon. They have all had balance in their lives, enjoying majority time at home and greatly beneficial time at nursery. I would not change a thing...they loved going, never cried, socialised wonderfully and always knew I was coming back for them. Everything in moderation.

SwallowedAFly, your post is great. My DD (nealry 2) has been in fulltime childcare since 10 months old as I went back to work fulltime. But we chose a childminder instead of a nursery as I feared the latter would be too hectic for her. She has a fantastic time there and alot of one-to-one attention as well as a good amount of activities. We are lucky.

However, I like your point of providing her calmness and serenity at pick up time and weekends. A lovely, lovely point!

Guilt ? Not a feeling I have ever had re my 2 ds's going to nurseery. 2 days a week. happy with their care.
Yes there are bad nursery's. There is bad everything. And good ones too.
Oliver tells me nothing new.

'colossal ache in the arsepipe'