Nursery care is harmful - guilty parent here.

[fifitot]

www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/oliver-james-daycare-under-threes

Thanks Oliver.

The comments below are quite interesting though.

i dont hector and berate mums who dont work,yet its fair game for working mums to be berated with psychobabble and poor research

here a tip

do what you want
i'll do what i want

I can't believe people are so didactic, sungirltan. Thought we had a bit more of a live and let live society until I had kids.

A chef friend of mine once said (about something else entirely but it fits) 'Opinions are like arseholes- everyone's got one.'

Still makes me smile, esp in the face of judgy pants.

scottishmummy - agree. its like how you cant tell anyone they are fat because its mean but skinny people have iron skin right?

but i'll bear all this in mind when i go back to work and meet a service user tearing her hair out and struggling at home alone all day with her dcs. instead of helping her with childcare options and routes back into work/eduaction i'll just whip a handful of oj columns out of my handbag and give her my best partronising face and waggle my finger at her.

hairy - am i being didactic?

Well I don't even know what didactic means! Clearly being at work has not helped to restore those lost braing cells!

is it so inconceivable a mum might want to work.two thirds of mums work. Of working-age women with children aged under five,57% were in employment.

hahahahahahah I can't even spell brain

didactic - that you are lecturing - in the negative sense

its just another theory to pitch women against eachother :-)

in my v humble opinion

Ahhhh, thanks sungirltan

No sorry, sungirltan, I was agreeing with you about the black and white antiquated thinking. I just meant people are so quick to say 'You're wrong for not making the same choices as me'. I find it odd that people can't seem to conceive that it is fine for everyone to do things differently.

It seems to me that some people (2cats I'm looking at you here) cannot justify their own decisions without implicitly criticising those made by others. It's like they can't bring themselves to admit acting on what they want to do - it has to be what is globally the 'best' thing and any other choice must be flawed/neglectful/downright satanic.

And wtf is that with the 'lots of cuddles' thing? Come on woman - do you seriously think working women don't fit lots of cuddles in as well?

Right - must dash - off to work I absolutely passionately love my job.

I just love the idea that women who work have big incomes to pay for large nursery fees.

Truth is most women are caught between a rock and a hard place. Can't afford to give up work totally but still find nursery fees an absolute strain financially.

As for living in 4 bed detached houses - yes I wish I did.

I would love to see a study about big families and cortisol levels.

I would also love to see a study about the benefits to children in having fathers who spend serious time with them, not just see them on weekends because they're working long hours.

It's just not as simple, for most of us, as 'FT daycare vs SAHM'. In my case, we weighed up:

SAHM and mostly-absent father (travelling a lot for work)
vs
Part-time SAHM, part-time SAHD, part-time daycare. We chose the latter partly for our own benefit (neither of us wanted the first lifestyle) and largely because we passionately believe in the benefits of having quantity time with both parents, and we could only do that with a bit of daycare thrown in, since neither of our jobs would allow us to reduce to 50% hours.

I know people who have weighed up 'SAHM/working Dad but in a place with no support system, few friends, etc' vs 'WOHP with grandparental support system'. Friends who have chosen between part-time work and living with in-laws in a small house no garden, and full-time work in a bigger house, nice garden, access to playgroups and museums and parks. Friends who have chosen between unhappy relationships (but SAHP) and single parenthood with daycare.

I have no problem with talking about the issues head-on. I don't mind knowing that when my daughter was younger, her daycare days were suboptimal, because it meant that I knew I had to compensate for that on other days, which is fine. But I wish it wasn't always so damn reductive. These are complex issues, there are HUGE variables, nobody knows which complex equation results in the 'best' care for the child.

No, better we just pretend that the choice is daycare or mummycare.

I also love the whole "1-1" care standard. DD2 has never had 1-1 care - she gets what we can give her based around a rampant 2yr old!

I think the point some people were trying to make is not that all working mums choose to work. Those that don't have a choice shouldn't torture themselves reading this kind of research.

But there have been plenty of people on here who have pointed out that it is not for financial reasons that they work, but a personal choice because they find fulfilment. That too is fine, but then, like me (who has a choice) research into these things is important to help you make a decision. Surely we all want what's best for our children? Weighing up decisions like this can only be done if there is research publicly available.

I agree the study appears to be old, but maybe that just highlights an absence of more up to date studies that need to be done.

Unfortunately, reactions like those that have been posted would be enough to put most researchers off touching the subject...

yes precisely riven - that occured to me as well.

ah understand hairy - i am a bit lectury about stuff - i'll take the risk!

agree also with tortoise re the dads thing - oj's opinion is flawed and veering toward sexism. god, he would only need to change 'mother' for 'parent/carer' - but chooses not to!

i'm sure for mostl families choosing childcare options that they make their decsions based on an holistic picture of their family/financial/personal needs - oj really belittles that.

Thanks tortoise. I think these articles are utterly pointless (and it is interesting to read what Minx says about the research base for this particular one).

Everybody has a different situation and parents who have put time and effort (and money if needs be) into finding the best replacement for themselves that they can are unlikely IMO to have any extra problems as a result.

Hope you are having a lovely day 2cats. I am on ML at the moment and think oh tomorrow, DD DS and I will do lovely things and we'll have a lovely day. In practice, I carry DD kicking to the park because she didn't want to get dressed, get her and DS playing for about 5minutes until one gets hungry, feed them, carry one sleeping child home pushing another screaming child because it didn't want to leave the park. Then get home, get all toys out and strew them around the house while dealing with another tantrum because DD has been told not to leave her building blocks on the stairs. Count the hours until a glass of wine. Glad your reality is so much better.

2cats - in the time it took me to put the buggy away at nursery this morning, dd had already had cuddles from two of her nursery carers (cuddles which she returned in double measure while giggling). When I went back into the room to hand something over, she was busy having breakfast and didn't even notice me. Apparently they're going to the park later to see the ducks.

Poor thing, eh? I feel so guilty leaving her in that horrible place...

I too would like to see a study on corisol levels in school children. I imagine is some children it would be alarmingly high...and we might even consider smaller class sizes and later starts in the year for summer born children.

Riven - not in this house! Now that is something rather amazing. How do people do it?

Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if someone else has already made this point.

Surely the most helpful way to look at it is that a childminder may well be the best choice for under-3s, and to ask why there is such a shortage of childminders in many areas? The EYFS has put a lot of people off, as has all the Ofsted registration, going back a little further - there are so many 'targets' now in early years care that it's much easier for nurseries to meet than childminders. Purely anecdotally, around here there seems to have been an increase in the number of nurseries, and a decrease in the number of childminders, and also a tendency among parent to opt for nursery over a childminder because of facilities, percieved greater transparency etc. Lots of people are still very 'sniffy' about childminders, so I think it's great that someone is pointing out that they may well be the best choice, particularly for a baby.

My dd started nursery a few weeks ago just before she turned 3. In the morning she is lovely and a joy to be with, she behaves nicely a nursery then as soon as i get her home afterwards what a little monster she is and its only just started when she started nursery. I had wondered what the link might be, maybe its this...