Calling all Mum's of demanding kids - are your fuses as short as mine? :( sorry, bit long)

[balanomorey]

Am wondering if I'm normal or in need of anger management!!
My coming up to 3 yo dd is so demanding, I seem to spend 3 parts of my day bawling her out or saying no - it's so demorilising - I'm sure for her too, although I know I have to set boundaraies, don't I?

Her speech and awareness of what's going on around her is, imo sometimes gobsmacking for her age. She knows exactly what she wants, can ask (demand) for it very articulately and comes out with expressions that very often floor me! She seems to know too much at a young age. But as she is so young, she is obviously so very immature in many other ways and always wants to run before she can walk ("I do it" is her favourite expression) and when i say no, because imo what she is asking for she can't do or it is dangerous to have etc, she goes off on one. She also takes forever to do what I ask - all in all, she can be SOOOO frustrating - but at the same time, adorable and I lurve her to bits!

However, as I said all this continual conflict of interest is wearing me down as I am constantly saying no and shouting to the point where she will say 'don't shout at me' before bursting into tears or she will panic if she knows or thinks she's done something wrong as she will say "sorry, sorry, sorry" over and over and looks genuinely scared I'm going to tear her off a strip .

Feel really bad this morning as we were late getting to nursery and she suddenly decided just as we were going out the door that she needed the potty. I was not best pleased as she has used the potty as an excuse lately to keep getting out of bed or stall bedtime...she sits there for ages insisting she needs to go and nothing happens, so assumed she was playing this game again. This happened last night at 3 in the morning (the sides have just come off her cot, and I think she thinks this is a great excuse for disturbing the household in the middle of the night now that she can get out and tell us she needs a wee)...so this morning I bawled her out for needing the potty (frazzled on the back of a bad night, maybe) and felt awful as she then proceeded to do a big wee...told me to say sorry for shouting at her...and told me how much she loves me ..so have been feeling guilty and crap mum all morning.

Just a bit of a rant really, but make me feel better by telling me I'm not unusual to shout - I hate shouting and am fed up of spending a large part of my day bawling and getting wound up. Am I alone in this?
Thanks for reading, sorry so long, just needed to vent. x.

Mimizan, children always cooperate with strangers more than with their own parents.

DD is nearly 4 and I know full well that in 'école maternelle' she follows instructions and if the teacher says paint something a particular colour, she will without a fuss.

Yesterday we did painting at home and for the first time ever rather than just letting her create, I told her I would only be getting out certain colours so we could make red robin pictures (for Christmas cards) and when that was done we would have all the colours out. She started but then had a tantrum because I said that the blue would be coming out later, and went off to do something else while her older brother and I continued painting.

I don't worry about this, it is perfectly normal. I think next time rather than saying 'let's do painting'. I'll say DS and I are going to make xxx and if she wants to join in let her.

Well, re Snakes and Ladders, DS did get angry and bite me because he didn't want to follow the rules correctly! He had to go into 'time out' (I strap him in the pushchair) and miss one turn and I lost my temper and shouted, but after that he played sort of properly. DD was so grateful I think that I was actually doing something with her that she wasn't too bad. She did keep saying it was her turn when it wasn't and I did have to make an effort not to let this get to me. I do think you have to do these activities when you are feeling STRONG and they do seem to try to 'mess it up' but if you stay strong and calm I think they learn a lot from it (taking turns, following rules, using self control, winning and losing).

For the times when you don't feel strong (most of the time for me) I do have another 'technique' for interacting [sorry if I'm being SmugMummy], which I did the day before when I felt so sleepy and unmotivated I could hardly wash up a cup to have a coffee! I had to force myself to do this, but I went into the lounge where the DCs were and just lay on the sofa near them and looked at them. I try to 'meditate' on them and take in everything about them while watching them. I do this in the hope that my positive feelings for them will come, and they usually do.

I don't even think you need to make a huge effort to show these positive feelings if you are feeling really unmotivated and just having a day when you 'can't', because if you feel the feelings and you are looking at your children as you feel them I think they sense how you feel! I feel this with mine anyway.

Then after watching them for a bit I make comments on what they are doing and ask them dumb questions about it and join in with what they are doing but let them direct it all. I come up with ideas to make whatever dumb game they are playing more interesting and they can use my ideas if they want or not if they don't. With something like Snakes and Ladders or a specific craft project you have rules you want them to follow so loads of potential for you to be frustrated when they 'challenge' the rules. When you let them direct the activity (I'm going to call it the "unstructured play technique") and just throw in ideas to make it more interesting (because their games can get bloody boring can't they for us!) you don't get so frustrated and angry!

I sometimes start to find myself getting into it despite really not wanting to do it in the first place and having creative ideas! When I get enthusiastic, they do too and it can develop into something more interesting and even educational.

My problem is getting enough motivation to force myself to start it but it is worth it when it happens. My lists and 'star chart' for myself really help me! It may be childish but if it works....

OSOC- Yes I know they co-operate for other people more than me. It is very weary making having to find ways of gaining their co-operation. I do manage to do craft activities quite well, because I mor e or less let them do what they want. We've had the same issues making christmas cards lol. How many parents actually make cards with their DC? I think we are good parents on this thread and it is no wonder we lose it sometimes. Most of the time we are more than good enough. Sorry if that sounds self-congratulatory btw.
Whereabouts in France are you? We lived there and DS1 went to an ecole maternelle for a year. How do you find the French school system?

Acting Normal- I like your tip about just watching the DC and then joining in. You make a lot of sense. I like dancing, playing percussion instruments, making stuff with them, baking etc I suppose I am just not a fan of board games. I didn't like them much as a child. The DC like them though, so I will try to make an effort. Snakes and ladders isn't too bad. We tried Monopoly on holiday and that was hard work. DD kept running off with the counters and the money for a start. Explaining the rules and getting the DSs to bide by them was

Mimizan, I am in northern France.

I presume you lived in Mimizan.

OSOC, We were in the Charente, but spent 2 lovely weeks camping in Mimizan.

OSOC, mimi - my parents live in charente-maritime (near saintes). we go there often. i grew up in brussels so went to school there, huge differences between my experience of belgian school(admittedly in the 70s and 80s) and my kids' current experience in a touchy-feely quite relaxed british village school! i envy you in many ways OSOC, i would so love bilingual kids but as DH monolingual i don't often talk to them in french .

Katiek- I know Saintes very well as we have some friends who live in a place called Migron, which is closeby. I really like Saintes, especially in the summer. The park is fab, and we love the ampitheatre. I like the shops there too.
I'm at you being bilingual. We were there a year, and didn't really get beyond chatting about the weather and other basics.
I liked it in the summer, but found the winter a bit grim.

wow mimi that's so funny! i love saintes too. we virtually live in that park when we go over! my mother just about slits her wrists every winter though, gorgeous charentaise farmhouse and all...she is Not Good At Rural Living (in any language! )

Had that funny scenario today where I was desperate for Ds to nap and thought he was ready about 2 hours before he was. Tried pretending to nap with him - as we were at home - and ended up working harder than I was before with story telling, toy role-plays, singing songs etc. I was ready to nap for real after that but DS still rocking and rolling - this boy has limitless energy, it sometimes seems to me (or is it just that I am old ) Anyway when he was finally obviously keeling over it was out in the pushchair for the (immediate this time) big sleep. Sounds like most of you on this thread are past the toddler napping stage but do any of you remember the desperation factor...?

Yes SkyD, I remember, when you really want a break and they won't sleep and you feel really angry, but nothing will make them if they aren't ready! It sounds like you've done some really cool things with him while trying though and you should give yourself a star, or several, on your star chart if you have one .

I know 'normal' adults don't have their own star chart but I'm doing a sort of one for me because it is actually working! [amazed]
I was already writing down every bit of housework I do so that I can feel I've achieved something by looking at the list and it was motivating me to make the list longer and longer.

I've only just recently started listing activities I do with the children on there as well and it is working with motivating me with that as well! I've been putting stars next to them for more motivation and to remind myself that these times with the children are more important than housework. If I've got stars in my list but some of the housework has not been done I've decided that that is ok. This is important for me because I think I was always finding reasons to avoid interacting with the children and I sometimes used housework.

I know I'm going on and on about my fecking star chart but I'm just so amazed that something is working on my lack of motivation and depression and low self esteem (from feeling like I don't achieve enough and am a crap mother etc) when I've tried so many other things that have made no difference! I might go on about it even more in the mental health section.

I got 4 stars today, 1 yesterday and 3 the day before. That's only 3 days so I should probably do it for a couple of weeks before going on about it as a 'cure' in "mental health". Already I feel there has been some kind of shift in my brain though.

Thanks ActingNormal. I am struggling today. I am looking forward to being asleep

My 2.2 year old has always been a quite fussy, conservative eater and recently this has got worse, with him refusing a lot of food automatically. I make a meal, give it to him and he just shouts "NO!" and pushes plate away - end of story! I think maybe I have now got into negative patterns around pressurising him to eat or maybe this is just the main arena for his asserting the famous 2 year old Will, as it feels like it has become a battlefield on the quiet. It's just so hard-wired into me as a mum to want him to eat nutritious food - or at least reasonably good food (I'm not faddy or trying to force broccoli and vegan nut meals on him BTW!) that I find it so painful to watch him only eat half a digestive biscuit and a tiny pot of yoghurt for dinner - basically very little and that's after having tried all sorts of other stuff. Otherwise he is drinking well (milk - both formula and normal, juices and water) and seems to be getting enough good stuff one way or the other as he seems very healthy and energetic, growing fast and a good weight.

It can make me cry trying to feed him though! I have tried being (pretending to be) cool about whether he eats anything or not, tried making it fun in different ways (car and aeroplane pasta, chase the peas which make a bee sound etc.) Tried eating together as a family v him eating alone, tried putting him in front of favourite programmes while he eats so he gets a pleasure/distraction factor, tried shamelessly manipulating him with YOutube short films of various toddlers eating (!). My DP thinks I should just let him either eat or not eat and make minimal fuss, and not make more than one meal for him if he doesn't seem to like the first one (that he would eat it if he was hungry). I think he's probably right, but he does not have it as his 'job' to feed my DS three or more times per day and so doesn't actually engage in this dynamic/problem/whatever it is as I do. I veer between thinking all is probably normal (and DS is getting enough good food in him one way or the other) and the battle of wills is bound to come out somewhere to thinking Ds is going to miss out on essential nutrients and/or will end up with an eating disorder from my stressing around him eating???? Help!

sky, hello xx no time to post re food (tho SYMPATHY +++ and yes he is going to survive this on the nutritional front JUST FINE) but just wanted to quickly post re SLEEP - i used to just about weep with the tension i used to feel when DD wouldn't nap, knowing the horrors of the afternoon ahead if she failed to recharge at midday with her zzz's. this was at about your stage - when she was just starting to fight her nap. by this stage i had a baby too (who, left to his own devices, was in a lovely little routine of a 2 hour midday sleep, as they often are at that age). i used to do ANYTHING to get her to sleep. walked the streets with both of them for hours, hoiking baby out of his perfect she-who-won't-be-named sleep (not that we managed any other part of her routine, but i was pretty rigid with daytime sleeps) in his carefully darkened room to cram him into a borrowed double pushchair with his grumpy big sis. i would drive for miles (oh the eco-guilt!), round and round the block. anything. i tried all the alternatives eg quiet time, dvd's and yes eventually they came to replace her nap reasonably well. but for about a year nothing but a nap would mitigate against the Afternoon From Hell. i used to get really wound up about it all and so YES i have felt that desperation, you are certainly not alone! i even on a few occasions drove DD round the block with baby inside the house fast asleep, knowing he was such a reliable sleeper that for the ten minutes required he would be fine. looking up fearfully at his little window for leaping flames on every trip past the housefront. argh argh argh.

Thanks Katiek omg although I only have one child I recognise all your tactics -bar the driving as I cant drive! I have double posted the eating thread elsewhere as I was so fed up (LOL at freudian use of phrase) with the eating lark, and have already had some very good advice about the 'hands off - provide good meals but don't expect/make fuss about eating. But good to hear your nutritional opinion so thanks...

ActingNormal, couldn't find this thread recently (?) and now my computer's broken. Just to say that nothing happened to my daughter at 3 years in particular, except that she was independent enough to articulate her essential jealousy of her twin brother, who I think was the apple of my eye but less advanced in many ways than her (but somehow cuddlier). I think she felt that whatever she did to please me, he was always my favourite. Once I recognised that he was my favourite (subconsciously) which was a terrible thing to realise, I tried to recapture some of the feelings I had had for her as a tiny baby when I had felt especially close. And then I ended the vicious circle, when she behaved badly because she felt unloved, and was less loved because she behaved badly. We are getting on very well now, and I just hug her a lot, and try to listen to her. And not give her too many material things which never satisfy for long. P.S. Won't be logging on to mumsnet in near future as computer broken...

Just thought I'd report that it's already really helpful using the no-encouragement/pressure technique.Ds eating like a little horse today . I'm just a bit embarrassed that I hadn't got to this one earlier by myself Proves the power of MN!

How many stars is that for my chart AN? (by the way I'm aware the 'progress' might be co-incidental or temporary!).

Skydancer- my eldest DS was a challenge sleepwise. He was hard to get down for a nap in the afternoons, and was a very early riser. He's still first up in the household. We call him rooster, but he has learnt in the last year(he's now 9) that it is best not to come in our room to pester us to get up. Now he goes downstairs and turns the TV on. This is not perfect, but it gives us all a bit more sleep.
For the afternoon nap, when DS1 was 4 and DS2 was 2, I'd be completely desperate to have a break from them both mid-afternoon. I have lots of memories, of putting them in the car, cranking up the heat, to make them drowsy, turning on Classic FM to relax them, then driving for milesand miles.Terrible for the environment. I used to have to drive to the motorway, because they needed a smooth drive at an average speed of 50 MPH to fall asleep.
I felt completely insane, and am really surprised I never had an accident. It's a good job, I didn't live near Katiek because we'd probably have had a head on collision with my manic driving, and her staring up at windows for flames
However that time has now past. There are new challenges, but I can honestly say that the sleep deprivation stage has been one of the hardest.
With the eating, DD age 3 doesn't eat 'proper' meals. We have decided not to force the issue. She eats alot of cereal at breakfast time, bits of fruit here and there, picks at meals and still has lots of milk to drink. We have regular family meals and sits with us, but we don't make her eat. Basically she eats when she's hungry, and I try not to stress too much about whether her diet is balanced, if she's getting enough etc.

Hi Mimizan,

I'm sorry you've had similar challenges but I've got to say it's so good to hear other mums so frank about how nuts they go with sleep/having a break from kids deprivation! I go my absolute nuttiest around this time of day now, as the naps are getting later and sometimes non-existent, but DS is knackered, clumsy, emotional, clingier and prone to accidents but fighting sleep. Actually I managed to stay calm and philosophical about his state for quite some time today but then suddenly I turned into 'Desperado'. I'm only able to write this because my DP has taken DS off my hands. Oh they've just returned with a sleeping beauty...How come my DP has the magic touch with getting LO off to la-la land - probably because he's not desperate

Food - good to have a breakdown of how your DD eats...very similarly to mine. DS had a lot today so far for breakfast and lunch but all in bits and pieces here and there. Leaving aside drinks he's had half an apple, most of a banana, a digestive biscuit, a few mouthfuls of a stew - (potato, lentil and carrots etc.) and some eggy-potato. I have been enjoying not making a sing and dance around him 'not' eating and hey presto the lad eats .

LOL mimi at our imaginary near-collision on our mission-destroy-the-planet drivathons . i did eventually do the green thing and switched to cycling along with one or the other in the back seat for miles on end when they got a bit older and i had someone to mind the other at home(!). got me fit, well fitter, at least!their heads did loll about a bit disconcertingly when they fell asleep but it was a risk i felt was worth taking
agree wholeheartedly that while other challenges replace those of the earlier years, the sleep deprivation one has got to be high on the list of the very worst that we mums (and pas) have to endure but it IS temporary. just feels like forever at the time, i clearly recall!
you and sky sound like you have the eating thing sussed between you - good luck. i am struggling with table manners at the moment but the fussiness (DD dreadful in the toddler years - foods not allowed to touch each other on plate, v restricted number of foods eaten etc etc)has receded a lot with age, thankfully.

I've had such a terrible weekend. The boys' behaviour is putting so much strain on mine and DH's relationship that I don't know how much longer we can go on.

I have been trying really hard not to shout and to deal with the conflict calmly, but I just get criticism from DH about how I handle things. We had a huge row this morning in front of them and DS1 was very upset, I feel so guilty. DH still not talking to me either .

SwanRiver, I loved reading your post because it feels satisfying to see how you had a problem, recognised it, made sense of it and understood it, changed your 'techniques' and solved the problem! It gives us hope that these sort of things can be 'fixed'! I feel there was a similar thing going on with my DD and DS (also less advanced than she was at his age but "somehow cuddlier") and I've been working on it with very gradual improvement. Lately though, because there is so much more I can do with her than with him, because we both like art and craft and she is older and can do other more complex activities, but he is younger and hates art and craft, I feel like she has had more attention than him! It feels so important that they should be treated equally, but because they are different people it has to be done in different ways.

Skydancer, when I read "how many stars should I get?" for some reason a quote from my therapist came into my head - "You know (puts his hand on his heart), deep down you know, listen to and trust your instincts". (The things he says are useful but also seem really comical to me.) What I mean is, you instinctively know how much of an achievement as a parent it was so you know how many stars to put, and if you know deep down that you are 'cheating' and putting too many stars you will feel a faint feeling of guilt. (I know it wasn't a serious question and I've typed a semi-serious answer but I'm obsessed with the new star chart thing at the moment, it's still working for me and I'm amazed that something is really working and it isn't my shelf-full of herbal remedies).

Re the sleep thing, it has such a HUGE negative effect on how tolerant you can be and how positive you can be and I can't blame anyone for feeling crap about their parenting before the sleep thing is sorted - YOUR sleep I mean. If you have any emotional issues or mental illnesses lack of sleep intensifies them. My children are good sleepers now but when I don't get enough sleep for other reasons I feel myself slipping back into the 'madness' that I feel I am now coming out of! In my last therapy session he went on about focussing on getting more sleep so he must agree. Also because lack of sleep makes you think negatively, you are probably doing a much better job of everything than you think you are.

Washersaurus, are you getting enough sleep? How old are your boys? What behaviour are they doing? How long has it been like this?

I don't get enough sleep; DS1 is 3yo and DS2 is 16mo. DS2 doesn't really like sleep and is a very clingy demanding little boy. DS1 suffers if he doesn't sleep enough and so is also very grumpy at the moment. Neither of them eat much, DS2 is currently living off cereal bars and fromage frais, he hardly drinks anything either but still bf twice a day. They fight almost continuously and it always ends in DS1 pushing or hitting DS2, who then bites.

I go mad if I stay at home with them all day because of their behaviour, but if I take them out anyway, DS1 sits in the buggy scowling and refuses to take part, DS2 rampages; toys hurled across the room, things destroyed, tantrums etc. I usually opt to take them out despite of this but it leaves me feeling frazzled and by tea time I am usually screaming at them as I've had enough.

Gawd, sorry that was a long post, sorry.

God it must be really hard work having 2 children that young and with the sleeping and eating not sorted yet! Who can blame you for getting stressed and irritable! I bet loads of people have told you it will get easier but it is really hard for you to see it/believe it, but it WILL! Try to do everything the easiest possible way and be easy on yourself and don't forget to do kind things for yourself. Persevere with trying different things to help with their sleeping and eating until you find what works for them. I bet their behaviour will improve once those things are sorted. Post details of what the problems are with the sleeping and eating - what happens at those times and get everyone's ideas to try, there are some really clever types on here

I'm so glad I found this thread, DH thinks I'm a terrible mother.

DS2 has never really slept well, even co-sleeping never worked. Until recently he was still waking for night feeds. We moved him into a bed with a pillow and duvet which improved things. He still wakes at night sometimes, but can usually be settled. He wakes at around 5/6am for a feed. He will only have daytime naps in bed if DH puts him up to bed - which is rare as DH does work f/t. DH also has to sit with him until he goes off to sleep in the evening after I have fed him as he won't settle for me.

I think my main issue is the relationship between DS1 and DS2, they just fight all the time, and DS2 is so aggressive and generally lairy, I don't know how to handle him. DS1 is uber sensitive and I'm so worried I'm screwing him up.

I'm not too stressed about the meals tbh, that is a battle for another day.