MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

a polite person is not necessarily a kind person. at all. in many cases quite the contrary.

morningpaper - not rude, no - but my daughter is not confined to her bedroom watched by a nanny all day

What if didn't really hurt? Should he check first?

And why should he apologise if it was an accident and he doesn't feel regret?

(I am genuinely curious, because surely this situation is purely manners, rather than anything to do with how he feels)

sophable - I completely agree . It's best when the two go together, but I would choose kind over polite any day.

sophable I completely agree with you

Teaching manners is just the first step in a long road of bringing up a rounded and caring individual - a proces that takes years

But it is, surely, the first step?

I have trained ds (age 4) to say 'excuse me' when he wants to attract someone's attention (he even says it to his friends, which is very sweet). Sadly lots of adults ignore him when he says it, which hardly reinforces the message. I'm not expecting anyone should break off their conversations to listen to him (or anyone else) but an acknowledgement when he's being polite would be nice.

I just think there should be a bit of give and take - adults persistently ignoring children is as bad as children persistently interrupting adults, in my book.

Table manners are an ongoing battle...

He should feel regret at that age, for hurting someone else unintentionally. If he doesn't, his upbringing hasn't been great IMO.

absolutely not, to my mind it is really not a first anything. like i said, manners are nice. that's it. not anything to get to incensed about.

I'm not suggesting my ds is uniquely interesting to anyone but me, btw, I listen to my friend's children when they want my attention!

morningpaper - if you "teach manners" (= train to certain automated behaviours) before addressing feelings, you run the risk of creating robots IMO. It's not a given, but it's a risk.

edam, agree, it drives me nuts when ds does patiently wait for a pause in a convo and asks something (rather than shouting over and over) and still gets ignored....how is he to be encouraged not to interrupt if that is the case.

i also do agree that the best way to teach manners is to model them rather than enforce them.

But manner aren't about feelings

They are about acknowledging other people

adults ignoring children is very rude and makes me v. angry

Its the little nuances that accompany pleases and thankyous that make them heartfelt or abrupt.

IME well mannered children come accross as lovely, considerate of others feelings and not at all repressed.

now I must hurry along to nursery to remove the hairclip I put in dds hair this morning so the staff don't think I'm a "repressive" parent

so sophable you also don't teach your children to say please and thank you?

morningpaper, you can acknowledge someone very effectively with a smile, in your tone of voice, facial expression. a sulky please isn't really a please is it?

I do. but i do it mainly by modelling it. and i don't like the fact that sometimes as I ask ds to say thank you or please. he always says excuse me when he farts. i'm sure it's far better manners not to fart at all, but i've taught him not to be ashamed of it and just to say excuse me with a grin!

morningpaper - what on earth is the point of manners if they aren't about feelings?

Acknowledging other people's true feelings is what manners ought to be all about.

no a sulky please is rude

you need a cheery please

or feck off brat

agreed.

it is like the difference between a 'gentleman' and a real gentleman.

the 'gentleman' will do everything correctly. a real gentleman will do everything to make his guest feel at ease....including lapsing in manners!

The point of manners is that they make EVERYONE FEEL LOVED UP AND APPRECIATED

even if actually they are just irritating

but morningpaper isn't that anna's point (sorry anna!) that if feelings are required with the manners then that is repressive. you will say a cheery please even if you feel like lamping me????

a real gentleman will give hours of pleasure

yes sophable because the alternative is what?

mp are you being saucy?????