MANNERS: What is ESSENTIAL and what is DESIRABLE? (OR: Does it make your hair stand on end when children don't say please?)

[morningpaper]

I've been reading this old article by Joan Bakewell

"Next, children. One of the joys of parenthood is looking upon your offspring as little angels. An adjacent pleasure is having others share that view. The interface between the two will depend on their manners. Forget the piano lessons, and ballet classes, neglect football practice and the school choir. A fluency with daily manners is one of the finest gifts you can give your children, and for that you need to start young."

Which got my thinking what manners in young children are essential and which are just nice?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS: (Without these I am )

• please
• thank you
• excuse me
• hello to anyone you know

DESIRABLE: (without these I am )

• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• closing mouth when eating
• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for hospitality
• pardon me for farting/burping

NICE: (these make me )

• thanking adults for nice meals
• thank you letters/pictures

What would you add?

Bink - sure, when you reduce it to the extent that you have it could be seen as absurd.

But I do think, based on experience, that certain indicators (eg automated pleases and thank yous, haircuts, cookie-cutter clothing) are often reliable "tips of the iceberg" of repressive parenting...

Had this very discussion with a bright year 6 class I taught.

They wanted to know why swear words were viewed as rude as 'they're only words miss' and why manners were actually really important.

I put across the idea that as words can be extremely powerful as it's not just the word itself but often the sentiment behind them that really causes the offence. F*ck is a word openly used in many different contexts some funny and some to cause maximum hurt and pain. Rape is another word I personally don?t even like to hear because of the connotation behind it.

The same could be said of manners. To say that saying please or thank you can strip a person of their personality (I think that's what I read earlier, I haven't deeply read this whole thread through though so apologise if I have misquoted anything) is going a little far. My ds/dh do something that's nice so I say thank you as an acknowledgment of the effort and time that whatever they have done. I actually think it is emotionally intelligent to say thank you/please and have good manners. Other people recognise these ways of acknowledging others and often comment on 'what good manners' people do or don?t have.

I'm proud my ds has good manners as this will help him not only get along in life, but, more importantly, get along with others.

As I?ve said to a years 3 class I taught, and ofetn to my ds -words are powerful, be careful how you use them.

Well, I'm pleased then caroline, because I think DP treats waiting staff with respect and he dotes on his mother

"like I hate little girls with their hair in bob/hairclip... brothers/sisters in identical clothes"

How impolite Anna.-

morningpaper, I'm surprised that sorry didn't feature in your list. I think that's the most important to me.

I'd put that up at the top and move hello to anyone you know down into desirable. A child who isn't saying hello is not necessarily meaning to be rude, they may just be very shy. My DS (3 1/2) is.

I agree with the others who say it depends very much on age.

What indicators should a man look for in a woman, Caroline?

Anna, may I politely suggest that I have found your arguments today bonkers? You are suggesting that polite people are repressed. And you have still not answered my question about what you would require of your children when they were passed a cake by a well-meaining old lady like myself.

I can't help but feel Anna that your dislike of manners stems from a part of you that feels happier in the old social heirachy where you are actually at the top, and manners = deferring to other people, which rather grates with you.

SORRY of course ponka

good one

Anna do you make your children say sorry? I don't think I felt regret until I was about 28, but I'm very glad my parents made me apologise for misdemeanors nonetheless

Lorayn - Good to hear.

Morningpaper - Big knockers.

TBH twig when DS has a friend round usually the one with the best table manners is DD. Also significantly less food on the floor on her side of the table.

And I agree with whoever mentioned bums on seats. These 6yo boys drive me mad writhing around, kneeling, hanging off the chair etc. DS has tendencies like this, but I have drilled them out of him - so presumably, on Anna's logic, he is in for therapy at some stage.

Are you sure Caroline? My DH says "Big Knockers at 20, Fat Bird at 40"

Should I leave him?

ESSENTIAL MANNERS:

• please
• thank you
• sorry
• excuse me when passing (except for Scooters on Pavements, which is the height of rudeness)
• hello to anyone you know
• hand in front of mouth for sneezing/coughing
• thanking adults for hospitality
• closing mouth when eating
• bums on seats at table

DESIRABLE:

• excuse me for farting/burping
• not picking nose. Deffo not eating it.
• Giving an adult a seat and happily sitting on the floor if there are not enough chairs
• Giving up seats on buses/trains
• thank you letters/pictures
• Holding doors open for grown ups
• Please may I... rather than Can I...

NICE:

• asking to get down from table
• thanking adults for nice meals
• In formal situations standing up (or at least acknowledging) when a guest comes into the room for the first time.

No, I am not suggesting that polite people are repressed at all. Quite the contrary. I expect adults to be considerate of others because they are emotionally mature and can judge situations on their merit.

I am responding to your OP - about what you require of children. I dislike the idea that certain "manners" (in fact, "behaviours") should be required of children.

The educating of children is infinitely more complex than your OP suggests.

Sorry can actually be quite a hard one to drum into children IME. I have had quite a lot of "but it was an accident" as a reason not to say sorry.

Morningpaper - no I don't "make" my daughter say sorry.

But she does and gives the person she has hurt a kiss and a cuddle.

And when she is offered a cake, she mostly says "merci", and always grins enthusiastically.

Anna, I too am a bit confused by you today, I have to say.

In your world view, it is ok to follow protocol (like restaurant protocol) but not to say please and thank you without sincere emotion. How is saying please and thank you not protocol at its finest?

Also, without remembering specific posts, I have never formed the impression of you as a non-repressive parent. I only say this because I am usually struck by how perfectly behaved your dd is, at such a young age too, as contrasted with your stepchildren? I have to put up with 2 rampaging beasts of each gender. Interesting.

But we require all SORTS of behaviours in children, manners are a tiny tiny fraction of those behaviours, and certainly nothing to do with repressing their personalities

Bozza - yes, my younger stepson is very keen on "it was an accident", "I didn't do it on purpose" etc instead of saying sorry.

like I hate little girls with their hair in bob/hairclip

What is the appropriate hairstyle for a girl? And PMSL at what you would make of the style DD has chosen to go to nusery in today. Picture not quite shoulder length, fine, wavy hair with no fringe but a wonky crown, and a small plait at the front at each side sticking out at a bizarre angle.

But Anna what if he genuinely feels those things?

If he steps on your foot, why should he say sorry, if it was an accident? You aren't really UPSET, and it was an accident. So why apologise at all?

blueshoes - I can only say that around these parts I am considered liberal in the extreme in what my daughter is allowed to do.

Anna that sounds like you are saying "My friends think my children are rude"

your stepchildren must have had even more extremely liberal parenting then, lol!

PSML what a repressed society you live in.

Am now v. curious as to what extreme liberal parenting is

Have visions of feral child wandering round snuffling for crumsb on the floor of Paris's top eateries

At ten years old a child ought to have learnt, from experience, that if someone steps on his/her foot it hurts. And therefore that if he/she steps on someone else's foot, he/she should apologise.

If my daughter at 3 can understand that, why can't a 10 year old boy?