Does Anyone Else Not Punish?

[pearlylum]

Seems an alien concept some but seems to work for us. I am interested in others who have taken the same approach.

My parents didn't punish us ever, as far as I recall. We were expected to behave well and were told off when we didn't. We certainly weren't "undisciplined" or particularly naughty. I'm in my 60s now. I don't have birth children but have cared for and been in loco parentis to several children, I've never punished either.

Bombadier, I actually completely agree with you on those wishy washy parents who just 'explain' thing to their children but never stop them from doing annoying things. I just don't believe in punishment that humiliates or hurts a child as an effective tool. So maybe it is semantics after all.

When my brothers and I were young lads we got the 'belt', leather side if we were bad, buckle side if we were really bad

BloodyBridget

Surely Being told off^^ is a punishment.

My dc are only very little but I have, do and will continue to punish (dd is only 11 months so she doesn't get punished yet though!). From what I gather on this thread and in real life parents who say they don't punish are generally:

• Those who do things I consider to be punishment but call it something else. I suppose I would consider removing toys a punishment. Time out/naughty step/thinking chair/reflecting corner all amount to more or less the same thing IMHO. Most parents are like this I reckon. I shout at my 2.5 year old if he's about to do something dangerous, I remove things he's thrown, he's not allowed to go and get his bath until he's tidied his toys away, if he snatched a toy from another child I would make him give it back, if he refused I would take it off him.....I consider those to be punishment therefore I punish.It's semantics.

-Those who have naturally biddable dc who are eager to please and simply need to be told not to do something and they never do it. Safe to say my dc are not like that!! -Those who have undisciplined kids. My friend is doing gentle parenting wrong and will not shout/sanction/punish her dd who is almost three. Her dd pulls other kids hair. A lot. My friend explains to her, at length why it's wrong to do it, why we don't do it, how it makes people sad etc. Her dd will literally drag other kids around the room by their hair, it's been a fucking year. I want to shout at her! Different dc clearly need and respond to different methods.

I would never smack my children. I can scarcely think of anything more pointless than hitting a child for hitting. I like to think I'm a nice mother and my dc are certainly happy but I do set boundaries and punish them. I see that removing his toy if he's lobbed it across the room is me exerting my power but it would be odd to pretend at his age that I don't have power over him!

i try my best to stick to natural consequences
but sometimes this doesn't work

e.g. yesterday DC (primary aged) wanted to play a game with DH and I. We agreed, but asked them to help tidy up all the craft stuff that was strewn over the dining room. They wouldn't, and kept arsing about chucking playdoh at each other.

Natural consequences would be that they missed the game, which did happen. Problem is - they weren't at all bothered, as they'd had a lovely time chucking stuff everywhere instead, and I still had a dining room covered in shite at dinner time. So they got a stiff talking-to and 5 minutes in their rooms to calm down as well.

I also think different kids need different approaches. DC1 is a born people-pleaser, and so it takes little more than a raised eyebrow and a gentle "I don't like to see XYZ" to affect some change. DC2 is far, far less concerned about adult approval and so requires a different approach on the occasions when she needs boundaries.

Filosofikal not what I think of as punishment - to me punishment is e.g. naughty step, isolation, loss of toy, treat or privilege, grounding, smacking. Just being told you have misbehaved and your parent or carer is cross with you is different.

I'm not sure Nicky, that those things are so similar (though agree that some of the things I do other people call punishment so maybe we just use different terms). Naughty step goes something like: You've been naughty so you have to sit on the naughty step until I say/you say sorry. Child interprets this as a battle. They try to get off the step, avoid saying sorry to see whether the parent will give in. I've seen children battle this one out for hours.
Cosy chair is also a time out but with entirely different emphasis. You say: you're so upset you're not being your usual lovely self (reminds child not that they are naughty but that they are typically good company) Go and calm down. They go to a chair with a teddy and blanket and - crucially - learn to self calm. That's a useful life skill when you're furious - sort your self out, calm your temper down. The child is allowed to get off the chair as soon as they feel ready. They are in control of their emotions and the situation. Because they don;t perceive the chair as a punishment but as a place of safety to calm down, they're happy to stay there. So although they seem similar, the effect and impact are very different. One is a punishment, the other encourages a skill and focuses on positive things: the typical good behaviour not the bad behaviour, the ability to feel cosy and calm after a bad day instead of sitting fuming at the injustice of the world for not understanding you needed to let off steam.

I agree with Peace.. This smacks of a stealth boast to me. If you have the golden rule to parenting because as you said in your own words - people have often remarked at how wonderfully behaved your children were/are, then do the rest of us a favour and tell us how to do it!! Parenting is wonderful but also hard and at times terrifying, some of us feel lost sometimes and always worry if we are getting it right. So come on, tell us how you do it!

Did nobody else get the 'belt' when they were young? I must have been 'lucky'

asprilla when I was young teachers used a belt in school.

pearlylum I didn't know that thanks, before my time as I am only 36. I had heard of the cane of course, can you imagine the outcry by parents if it was used in modern times!

I've never been one to believe that violence can ever lead to positive behavour change, it just breeds resentment, fear, contempt and sadness.

Asprilla - the cane and belt were used at our school too. Every day. Horrible, useless method of punishment. It just made people more combative against the system. Who can blame them? How could you ever respect someone who beats you?

I'm 37 and whilst we didn't have the belt or the cane we had the wooden spoon and the pump. Teachers used the wooden spoon and if a child really misbehaved they were sent to to headmaster to be hit with a pump. I was only hit once, another girl had kicked me under the table, I had told the teacher and we were both hit with the wooden spoon: her for kicking me and me for telling tales. Absolutely disgusting.

My parents hit me, well my mum did. I was fairly regularly given a clip round the ear or slap to the backside, regular enough for me to know it clearly didn't work. My sister's dc are older teenagers and they got slapped bums and hands too. I simply can not for all the breath in me imagine being violent towards my kids.

This thread is all very interesting but not very reflective of reality. Is anyone going to come on here and say "I don't do punishment and as a result, my kids are brats who everyone avoids"? No - so you've got a long list of people saying that they don't do punishment and their children are little angels and we've got no way of knowing as it is all anonymous. Quite apart from the fact that a lot of it is semantics - lots of the natural consequences sound like punishment to most people.

I am a mum, grandma and long time student and practitioner of positive reinforcement with regard to behaviour of both humans and animals as i work a lot with traumatised individuals of both... Bit of a funny intro i know lol but one of the things about discussions about punishment with regard to children ( or amimals) is that there is rarely a time when definitions or knowledge are clarified or agreed. From a pure learning point of view no one ever learns anything much without punishment in its learning definition being involved. Punishment is just anything added or taken away in order to minimise or stop a behaviour. Turning away from a child as in removing your attention or taking away toy is negative punishment. Smacking.... Or even frowning... At child is positive punishment. You have applied a stimulus in order to minimise the chances of behaviour recurring. So when someone says they dont punish... Well technically speaking thats impossible for any species ! It might be called a lot of different things but people saying they are using natural consequences are probably using minimal positive punishment and more positive reinforcement.... Praise for the desirable behaviours. For whats its worth to anyone.... positive punishment is not BAD if properly applied as is is by all species except humans... Its just that we humans equate and confuse it with retribution and apply it with emotions like frustration and anger ..Or prolong it. Agree with lots people who say the learning bit for children is better when calm..parent and child. .

They stopped using the cane in schools I knew because it didn't work - lads would prefer a short sharp pain to being made to do lines, have to get up early and run round the fields 10 times before school, or whatever.

Re younger children, the difference between teaching discipline and punishment is more in the words and attitude from the parent than the actual action - forcing a child to a naughty step/mat with angry words and physical force is different from leading them with a hug to the calming-down mat where they are free to leave once calm.

I'm sure my dd feels punished when I hold her hand if she's forgotten a road safety rule, but its necessary to keep her safe so I don't care.

Is anyone going to come on here and say "I don't do punishment and as a result, my kids are brats who everyone avoids"?

I will! My oldest is 4.5. When he was younger I said I'd never punish and would just explain why things were not ok and model good behaviour myself. By the time he was 3.5 he was an absolute nightmare. Hitting other children and adults, throwing things constantly, breaking toys, refusing to do things like get dresses etc.. He just wanted to do what he wanted and didn't care if anyone else got hurt in the process (don't think it's unusual for 3yos to have no empathy) as all that would happen would be an explanation. Switched to using "time out" (though I just call it "going to the hallway to calm down") and he is much better.

I think it's all about a child's personality. Some are just more wilful and need stronger boundaries than others.

It also helps me to have a framework as I was punished by guilt tripping and other fucked up emotional stuff like being compared to my sibling, told I was unlike, that there was something wrong with me etc (just for doing typical kid stuff) & have had MH problems since childhood. I don't want to treat my kids the same way I was treated though sometimes I can imagine myself slipping into it if I didn't keep tabs on myself

(get dressed not get dresses)

We're all talking at cross purposes. i'd never let my child be free of consequences. they do turn into brats that way. I had a friend who vowed she would never say 'no' to her child. She'd been brought up very strictly and believed the way for a child to be really confident was to have all their desires met. this child was an absolute brat and I felt so sorry for her, as she clearly needed and wanted boundaries.
But in my mind that's still different from punishment. I think of punishment as having some element of humiliation or power play where the adult has the power and the child is shown they have none, and that's what I avoid. But follow through, consequences, taking responsibility for actions, removal from being in or creating danger etc - they are just part of disciplining a child without humiliation.

I agree with you, giraffe. But I thought some replies on this thread were saying that saying things are not acceptable and letting natural consequences happen* waa enough as far as discipline goes. And it really wasn't for my DS1. He couldn't forward think enough to know (for ex) hitting a friend might mean they wouldn't want to play again, an explanation/being told off would roll over him & essentially hitting was worth it on terms of net gain for him (letting off anger, getting someone out of his way, getting a toy, whatever). Whilst time out seems a better deterrent.

• also, I struggle with this where "stuff" is concerned and the natural consequence is a broken whatever. He has a brother a few years younger, most toys are his too - why should DS2 suffer DS1's actions? What if it's something essential I will have to buy a replacement for? What if it's a gift the giver will be upset to see broken, or something of mine/DP's? In the last two scenarias it would be a rare young child who had developed sufficient empathy for that to be a sufficient deterrent to the fun of throwing something around/treating it roughly/whatever.

Interesting thread

My youngest is only 3.5, but I wouldn't say I punish. Luckily, I don't really need to as generally she's well behaved.

I am, however, strict. I'm a primary teacher by trade and she's well used to the hard stare, the "I do NOT expect you to do that again do you understand?", the countdown from three etc.

So I suppose I front load - when we are going to somewhere eg to a party I will discuss correct behaviour with her in the car before we get there. I am then eagle eyed whilst we are there and any poor behaviour, by which I mean not saying please or thank you, pushing, not sharing etc is stepped on. Afterwards I will praise good behaviour OR if we've had an issue I'll talk about it afterwards and why the behaviour fell below expectations.

I sound quite Victorian. I probably am, but I'm not the most patient and I have high standards.

As I say, she is generally very well behaved. Whether I have created a well behaved child with my method of bringing her up or whether I am lucky that she is generally "good" and responds well to instruction, who knows? No one has the "control" child to show how they would have turned out if you'd have done anything else.

Oh I should also say I've smacked her hand before now. It doesn't work and just makes everyone feel bad. I'm not going to beat myself up about it though, everyone has bad days.

downright, whilst no one has a control child, I think when you have more than one you get some insight into what is parenting and what is personality. If I'd had DS2 first I'd have thought I was an awesome parent but actually he's just much more compliant and eager to please.