Does Anyone Else Not Punish?

[pearlylum]

Seems an alien concept some but seems to work for us. I am interested in others who have taken the same approach.

Just caught up with some of the thread.
Flossie - you're right if adults hit or steal, there are punishments. But if children do it, I think they just need to be taught why it's wrong.
E.g. If my child stole, I'd make them return the item with a handwritten letter of apology. That's not punishment, I wouldn't take away toys or pocket money or playdates. It's a direct remedy to what they did wrong.
If they make a mess in a temper, they clear it up. I'm not angry. No naughty step. They're just given a cloth and some Dettol spray.
If they hurt another child I get very very 'angry' and insist they answer questions about whether they'd like to be kicked or laughed at and insist they explain why they did it and apologise. Again, no punishments, just natural consequences. They never do it again.

*We don't punish. Our kids are 20,18, and 14. Discipline and punishment are not synonymous.

To me, there is an element of humiliation in punishment, which is not helpful in dealing with whatever causes people to do things they shouldn't do.*

This is more or less our approach. My children are 19. 16. 14. I also really dislike the humiliation aspect of many punishments such as the naughty step and never used it. I am absolutely opposed to hitting a child as discipline. We never really used much withdrawal of privileges either (actually can't remember ever doing it but maybe we did).

We would tell them to stop doing something if it was wrong. Ask them to go to their rooms if they were being complete pills or fighting etc. I suppose you could view that as a punishment. We haven't had any major problems with any of them. We were stricter than most parents we know about things like manners/waiting for your turn/not being boisterous inappropriately/being polite etc.

notagiraffe what a lovely post. I love it.
Your username is also similar to non violent communication speak, giraffe hearts.
Your experience echos mine.
My kids think I am a strict parent.i have never punished.

Positive parenting is brilliant. Makes for very happy kids and parents.

Has anyone looked up the definition of "punish" or are many on the thread suffering from varying basic assumptions of the actual meanng f the word. I see hardly any examples of punitive parenting on this thread but several assertions that punishment is okay and just a different name for discipline, both are very different types of behaviour with quite distinct motives behind them.

tastes- good point. i completely agree.

Theres certainly a stretching of the concept of 'natural consequence' and a blurring between punishment and discipline. I just read a quick guide to positive parenting on, ahem, netmums, and it looked exactly like punishing by a different name. So time outs/confiscating games/deducting pocket money are suggested 'discipline' techniques. Same old same old, just different names.
I agreed with a lot of it eg distract/substitute/give advance notice. Maybe its not what you mean by positive parenting? I just think of it as 'effective'

I hope to be the same as giraffe. My kids are only 1 and 2 so we'll see. I came on to the thread because I assumed you had similar aged kids to me OP - presumably why PPs asked - but if there 16 and 19 you've obviously done a good job and it's worked for you.

*they're

Art I pretty much agree with what you've said. I'm not a shouter, or a smacker and never would be.

I think a lot of debate on this post is around what constitutes a punishment/consequence.

I agree with the Positive Parenting approach too
I've never been one for "punishment" as such - dd is 5 and can be a very emotional, bossy handful as well!

That's not to say I haven't had a shout/moan/stood giving empty threats like a lemon!

In what world is being made to write an apology letter not a punishment? Some of this discussion is really about semantics.

I don't think that anyone on this thread is advocating using classic punishments like being hit, or locked in a cupboard. Most of us only shout when we really lose our rag regardless of what sort of parent we want to be.

Sure bribery can work better than punishment (sometimes neither are terribly effective) and sometimes a quiet stern word is far more effective than a shout but they are both surely just ways to communicate disappointment.

My children are very different, once past the age of total unreason dd has been a people pleaser and very little trouble at all (she's got a bit sassy now, but I think that's par for the course for 15 year olds). ds on the other hand is very strong willed and self centred (I don't mean that in a bad way it's just his orientation, with lots of positive consequences now he is approaching adulthood). It took a very long time for him to really understand that actions have consequences and not to act on impulse. I don't think it made any real difference what approach was taken as until the right brain connections were made he wasn't in total control of his behaviour.

Did I do positive parenting? Did I punish? I've no flippin' idea and I have now young adults, all with very very different temperaments. What worked for one didn't necessarily work with them all. Isn't it just getting hung up over the word "punish"?

I was strong on boundaries, expectations and rules, there were just things I did not tolerate. Perhaps I'm a punisher, no idea having read this thread.

I would like to know how the non-punishers who positive parent would handle for instance a 17 year old who stayed out somewhere past when she should have been home - only round the corner but not answering mobile and not seeming to be coming home. My only recourse was to embarrass her, or at least make it clear that I would. (i.e. turn up at the house with my fluffy dressing gown and slippers on, and hair stood on end. I got as far as the garden gate.... it worked) Was that a punishment?! Yep. Think so. I looked scary

I agree entirely with art. That's exactly the way I look at discipline.

I don't think I punish my children.
I've shouted at them if they've misbehaved but then I've just explained why what they've done is not acceptable.
I've said 'no' in a stern voice to stop them doing something.

I'm also quite a strict parent by some standards but I explain why I expect certain things to be done and we usually seem to be on the same side.
Well we are at the moment. Let's see what happens in a couple of years when they become teenagers.

a letter of apology is not a punishment because its aim is restore good relationships between two people. A punishment's aim is to penalise someone for something they did. the naughty step serves no purpose on its own except to control and belittle the person on it. Taking away toys serves no purpose except to show a small person you have the power to take pleasure away from them unless they abide by your rules. A letter of apology serves to find the right words to make amends with someone you've upset. That's a useful and empowering life skill, not a punishment. I don't think it's semantics at all. It's a different approach with entirely different objectives, and the child never feels bad for what they did. They feel good for apologising and getting back on good terms with someone. No humiliation is involved.

I really hate and despise forced apologies that give the perpetrator the impression saying the words is enough to be excused. A genuine letter of apology seeking to build bridges and make amends is a good thing but what happens if the child refuses/only does it undet protest?

I quite like this type of approach instead (aimed at parents with younger kids)
www.janetlansbury.com/2009/12/youll-be-sorry/

I once received a letter of apology at work. It was a letter forcibly written as part of a disciplinary process. I saw it as a punishment for my colleague not as an attempt to restore good relations, which it wasnt. If he didnt write it, a more formal disciplinary process would have happened.i didmt read it. It was nothing to do with me. It was a punishment for him.

You are welcome to wilfully misinterpret it as a form of punishment if you want Bombardier. I know my children and how happy they are in our family. They were never threatened or bullied or punished in that dreary pointless 'naughty step/take your toys away' manner that pits wills and fosters resentment. They have been taught how to respect others feelings and treat people as they wish to be treated. That's no punishment. It's a life skill.

A forced apology is just as much a punishment imo. A genuine one would come direct from the child unprompted and so does not need to be forced. Did they always write letters/offer words of apology unprompted? If so that is a very high level of empathy for a small child. If not, then again imo it was a forced therefore punishment apology

Although actually perhaps you are right. I object to forced apologies perhaps because they do avoid punishment - just say you are sorry afterwards and you can do what you want beforehand. There was nothing more annoying than the child whose parents never actually stopped them biting/hitting/stealing toys or took them home afterwards(that would be my 'natural consequence' aka punishment) but just expected a 'say you're sorry' to cover it.

I started my parenting journey 'Supernanny' style with time outs and naughty steps etc but I had abandoned them by the time I had my third. It was kind of lucky I did really, he has ASD and he just does not respond to escalation but rather deescalation and explanation. In the long run, I knew, what I was doing with him worked better with the older children too. Although from time to time I can still be guilty of idle threats so definitely I am a work in progress.

I do think that it is discipline and not punishment that matters more. I definitely was brought up more on the punishment and not discipline side which probably originally influenced me.

OP, you failed to clarify your terms in your OP, especially what you meant by "punish".
The natural consequence of this is that your thread has been derailed, people are talking at cross-purposes, the tone is snippy and you haven't had the discussion you said you want.
I hope you have learned your lesson.

😂

We use restorative justice at schools where I live, and the idea is to make amends and rebuild relationships. It's very effective when used well. However I would still say it has an element of punishment or consequences, as the result is that people are required to take specific actions to make amends. The actions aren't really optional and while they are usually designed to be in line with natural consequences where possible they still take up the apologising person's time and/or other resources. As indeed they are designed to.

If I say to my child that the consequence of their action is that they will have to spend time on writing a letter then that's time away from doing things they want to do. They may well not really want to write the letter but they will have to do so. It's a consequence for poor behaviour and so is a punishment.

Plus for ds it really would have been a significant punishment as when he was small writing was very very hard. The idea would probably have led to a massive tantrum. Luckily his poor behaviour rarely hurt anyone except himself and so he's never been asked to write an apology letter.

dd was always happy to give apologies (usually to ds when she thumped him) didn't stop her from doing the same thing again!

I think most children simply grow out of bad behaviour.

I find you odd.

I don't see the point of this thread other than to show you shit gold.

What responses were you expecting?