Come and be a Better Parent with us in the Virtual Village

[Letsgoforawalk]

This was originally started by Another Monkey, the virtual village refers to the phrase that 'It takes a village to raise a child'.

You are welcome to vent, to ask for advice or to give us the benefit of your experience. The only thing we all seem to have in common is that we are all either ‘in there’ or have ‘been there’.

Perfection is not the goal, we are more about, as monkey brilliantly put it “choosing one thing to be less crap at at a time”.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child
How to be a Better Parent: No Matter How Badly Your Children Behave or How Busy You Are

Potentially useful websites (useful in quite different ways…..)
www.theorangerhino.com
www.ahaparenting.com
www.renegademothering.com

A wide range of potential sources of advice are listed because all our children are different and no book / technique / tactic will suit every family.

A link to the original thread is shown below, and I think Monkeys OP is worth a read as she sums it all up very well…….

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/behaviour_development/a2002053-Does-anyone-else-want-to-come-and-be-a-better-parent-with-me
wecome

Phew, MoreSnow! Glad I didn't make things work in my clumsy attempts to help.

So I gave the 'being more strict while still calm' tactic a try this morning, with some success!

It was another early grumpy morning with DD absolutely full of beans while I was decidedly not. Basically a perfect recipe for lid flipping! So I decided instead of trying extra hard to be nice/calm I would go the other way and nip all potential annoyances in the bud. I was also very strict with myself about getting us all up, fed and dressed etc. straight away, no dawdling, which is when I usually get wound up. It worked pretty well. I didn't shout anyway. Although DD was a little taken aback so I don't know how she'd react if it became a regular occurrence.

Anyway just thought I'd share the results of my experiment with the group

*worse, not work!

I didn't even know it was Mother's Day until I saw facebook! Oops! No ours is in May like the American one.

Foxy You are of course very welcome on the thread so hope this doesn't sound like I'm shooing you away but have you checked out the Special Needs section here on this site? It doesn't appear in Active unless you allow it specially but there is great advice on there. Plus look out for a poster called PolterGoose, she often hangs around Parenting, Behaviour/Development and AIBU and she is absolutely brilliant on ASD related behaviour management advice. I'll try and look out some of her posts. I know she is a fan of The Explosive Child which is a book you might find helpful, also Lives In the Balance which is a website. I know that often traditional, do as I say kind of parenting styles often don't work with ASD. Which does not mean that you need to do endless reasoning and negotiating, so don't worry. It's just about finding a way to work through things and communicate effectively with him.

I should add - you're not useless. It is hard. Consistency is very important too so it's really good that you follow through on what you say, because going back on things can make it worse.

Ha letsgo torture by Disney - that's the sort of insidious torture only a sister knows how to inflict

Bertie It's PMT time for me and I am being categorically rubbish, I found myself throwing cucumber this afternoon (drip drip drip drip drip drip BOOM) and it's like I'm looking down on myself thinking what the hell am I doing? I remembered your post about the toothbrush and it gave me some comfort!

We've got a lot going on and DCs are unsettled and there's loads to do and DD is coming down with something (she's complaining of stomach ache, generally viral and snotty, please don't let it be scarlet fever) and when DS's behaviour is particularly strange I'm not only fighting the annoyance at the behaviour, but also the fear of the underlying cause which makes it harder to be detached.

My own homework this week is to be more supportive of myself. And to repeat 'they are unsettled and poorly and it will pass' on a loop.

Bertie have you got another weekly challenge lined up?

Morning everyone, is there room for one more? I've been lurking for a bit and after another morning of talking in a horrible voice and feeling sick from reigning in my temper I think I need to start doing the assignments

I've got two DS's: oldest turns 4 in June, youngest is 17 months and I'm 26 weeks pregnant with DS3.

I know that I'm very quick to get stressed, shouty and moany, despite my efforts to rein it in- a complete contrast to my chilled, fun, never stressed DH!

My 3 year old has been in Nursery since Sept, five afternoons per week (had to drop nap for it) and has had a complete personality change since winter term when he befriended the boys who -supposedly dont- play fight, hit, kick and spit...It's coming in to the house now and he does it pretty much only to me and DS2.
Nursery are pants at helping, which is a whole separate post :)

I knew the staff were going to suggest assessment last year after a few pointed comments about DS's 'whirlwind' personality, how he gets fixated on things and (still) falls over a lot. These all followed Thomas being seriously hurt by another child, which was glossed over.
After two short assesments at Nursery by the speech therapist, we're looking at an evaluation by the educational psychologist next month, referral to an OT too and maybe ST which would be to get him to stop rushing, mumbling and jumping about topic wise.
My 17mo is a complete contrast, no sensory issues with food, no bolting when out, solid walker-no falling over thin air, 2 clear words combos.

Makes me feel awful for DS1, as I don't give a poop about labels- very happy for him to get as much support as possible. Just know how my in-laws as he already gets treated differently by them.

Essay/vent over :)

So far today I've shouted at DH (ruining a lovely handmade piece of clothing in the wash), DS (hitting his sister) and my Brownies (not listening, running into a road). I feel a lot more shouting coming on (I have the Brownies all weekend). It feels mildly cathartic as I'm not going to break any of them by shouting but it always feels like I'll break DS.

Ooh I'd totally forgotten about the weekly challenges. Yes I'll post one on Sunday.

Hi doctorboo.

We have had an "interesting" evening. I would say productive, It sort of fits, but, well, you'll see.

So first of all DS was being really hyper and annoying and I could not take it at all today because I had a headache/possible mild migraine. I'd kept him off Kindergarten to see the eclipse, which was fun but a bit of an anticlimax, especially with a headache! This afternoon I had just had enough and I couldn't get him to stay in another room, I had a sudden urge to smack him with a bag of pasta I was holding () but something calmer overtook me so instead I dropped the pasta (which was a mistake because I had to search out all of the pieces later...) wrestled him down to the ground and pinned him there by his shoulders, police style! He was a bit shocked but didn't seem scared, tried to kick me, but couldn't really do much. Tried to do a bit of his laughing it off thing, but for once it didn't wind me up because I actually felt in control for once, so I just stayed there until it actually felt like he was listening. I took on a bit of a "take no shit" kind of voice and basically made him promise that he would go and do what he had been asked when I let him go. He did.

I am still a bit because it seems so extreme but I wasn't hurting him at all and it actually forced him to come down from that wired, treetop sort of level place where he goes all "spacey" and he did seem to respond to it. Perhaps similar to how I used to have to strap him into something to get him to sleep when he was one.

Anyway, so that was weird, but interesting, and I think I will keep it for extreme situations where I feel like I'm losing control. Later, he was out playing with some friends (yes, he is six, but it's Germany and all of the kids play out from six), came back 10 minutes before bedtime and I said it's bedtime in 10 mins, so you can go out and say goodbye but then come in, it's getting dark as well. He said OK, but 15 minutes went past and no sign so I went to get him. Fine no problem, I know he gets distracted and he doesn't have a watch. So I got there and called him over, he (predictably!) didn't come running. I ended up having to chase him down and carry him home, and lock him in the house (shit, oops, must go and open main downstairs door!!) and he was really kicking off. Slapping, punching, screaming, kicking (still with shoes on). I tried putting him in his room to calm down, didn't work, so I pinned him to the floor again he said "This isn't helping me to calm down!!" so I said, OK, stay in here then so I can go and open the door. He refused so I ended up holding the door closed again. He repeated "This isn't making me feel calm!" so I said "What would help you to feel calm right now?" (That's an Andrea Nair tip which I love at the moment). He said opening the door and letting him out. So I said, OK, but I can't do that if you're going to hit and kick me. He said he wouldn't. I said that I needed him to promise, he did, I let him out, he was OK. Not calm but better.

Started getting ready for bed. We ended up having a long conversation. He says when he gets angry he can't help it/can't control himself. Doesn't think he will ever be able to. Said all nonchalantly like it's no big deal at all. Obviously with my history (his father was violent) I don't like this, so I said, no, you can control it. You have to control it because if you do that kind of thing when you are a grown up you will go to prison. So you will learn to control this. We understand that it's difficult and you are still learning, so that's why when you lose control me or Daddy will take control for you. You won't always like it but we have to do it to keep you safe, and us safe. If you know another way to help you calm down then you can always tell us, because that's what we want to help you do.

His idea was that he gets to play on the tablet to help him calm down. I started to explain that no, that's not an option because playing on the tablet is something good and hitting, shouting, etc is bad so he can't have something good when he is doing something bad, but then he looked really genuinely confused, so I explained it a different way, saying that when he has lost control we are not going to hand him something expensive and breakable because it is not safe. So that is not an option. (And interesting that he really seemed to not understand the idea of "not rewarding a tantrum" since it's SO prevalent in parenting methodology. I bet if I had said, well you might start shouting and hitting just to get the tablet, he'd say why would I do that when I can just ask for it?) Anyway he came up with some other ideas of getting a drink of water and having a rest (which I'm sure will work GREAT in the middle of a tantrum/meltdown but it's a start) but he seemed to want to talk about me "not being mean to him" in the first place so I explained to him why I was "being mean" and carrying him away from the playing place. He had a bit of a cry because I told him he couldn't go out to play for a while since I couldn't trust him, but I tried to be sympathetic, without going back on it, obv, and then he was OK after that and went to sleep like normal.

Phew! Sorry for the essay. I'm not really looking for advice this time, just sort of sharing I suppose.

Oh and DS is vv into ninjas at the moment so I also talked about controlling yourself being a very important ninja skill, which was a weirdly surreal moment.

Have been a little quiet here as been reading over the first threads - wanted to see if people had discussed some of my question areas before raising them. But had to come on today to share and seek advice/a hand/a good talking to/a grip/whatever you deem fit.

Today has been draining, horrible, ordinary, eye opening, lots of things. Mostly tonight I feel exhausted and daunted but determined that this will be a turning point. Hard to know which bits to describe without giving an essay but basically I feel/think that I have spent so long now shouting or being mean to my DS1 that I've caused him to start having something like panic attacks. Maybe I'm catastrophising (is that the word?). Trying to stay detached and look for positives because the script in my head of 'i'm such a bitch, how could I have done this to my precious child' doesn't help anyone really.

I do know i've been mean to him - a bully really - for the past day or two. It's when I'm trying not to shout but the resentment and anger is building up and I end up making snide comments or unhelpful things which HTT would hate (like - why do you always... or i am fed up of...). I know that he used to cry when someone shouted at him because it made him scared, but he seemed to stop that over the last year or so. I think he grew used to my shouting.

And this morning when I got cross with him over something pretty trivial it sparked a crying tantrum because he wanted to do the thing I said he couldn't - a totally harmless thing which we just didn't have time for becasue he had been ignoring me asking him to clean his teeth and we needed to leave for playgroup. TBH I had said no in part to be vindictive becuase I get so annoyed when he won't listen or co-operate. But I still feel I have to stick to what I've said, so I tried to be sympathetic but firm,, and the tantrum then turned into what seemed like a panic attack or hyperventilating thing. He was gupling and sobbing, saying his stomach hurt, groaning and saying he didn't know how to stop crying. I was trying to encourage him to breath in and out, to make different sounds eg hissssss mooooo, to break the fast breathing. Stayed calm, sympathetic, cuddled him on my lap till he calmed down. Went to playgroup feeling like shittest mother ever.

In playgroup I forced him to give up a drum to his friend who wanted a turn, prompting another tantrum/panic attack. Had to strip him down to cool him off and again the 'I don't know how to stop' gulps and sobs from him while he complained his stomach hurt. He has never had anything like this before. The same thing happened three more times today over various upsets.

It could be that he's coming down with something; it could be he's tired as we're sort of dropping his nap (another thing I am wrestling with as he could probably still do with one but selfishly I hope that if he drops it he will sleep later in the mornings or go to bed a bit earlier.) I also have a fair bit on my plate at the moment, but I don't want to make excuses. I want to stop hurting my child and being a bully. I think I will sign up for Orange Rhino, or maybe I should dedicate some time each day to read the Buttons book. Or medidate. Something.

Wow that was an essay sorry. not even sure if I need advice; just needed to share and to make the resolution. Tomorrow is another day. A better day.

They sound like meltdowns, Hazy. Panic attack/meltdown is probably semantics but I reckon a panic attack is more random or arbitrary whereas a meltdown has a trigger. It's interesting that it's every time you ask him to do something. Did you read the post the other day about "My child isn't naughty, she has PDA" ?

It does sound strange but I'm sure it's not related to a bad reaction of yours in the past - because stopping that ought to have stopped the reaction, if that makes sense. Instead it sounds more like he is reacting to the entire fact that he's been asked to DO something, both of you end up ramping up because neither of you is getting anywhere until he explodes. And possibly if you've got very frustrated in the past it's possible that was because he was being more frustrating than other children would typically be. I mean it's one of two things, isn't it, when you have repeated situations where the parent loses their cool? Either your patience is lower than other parents, or his testing of said patience is higher. You say DS1 so I assume you have other children - if you manage to deal with the other children better, then the logical conclusion is that it's him who is harder to deal with. That most likely isn't his fault, of course! But it also means that it's not yours either.

My DS also gets very very hot during meltdowns/tantrums - literally his t-shirt and hair will be wet through with sweat.

Although if it is very recent it might be that he is coming down with something. But do read the PDA thread - it's really interesting. I relate to a lot of stuff said about PDA although it's not quite as extreme these days. But then everything I read about how to manage it ends up being similar things to what I have found works and settled into a pattern of, so that might be it. He certainly reacts very badly to an escalation of "No, I'M in charge." but then is devastated later. You could get into a standoff with him and end up grounding/screen banning/whatever him for years because he doesn't care if you keep increasing it. The only way to get him to calm down is to separate, restrain and/or not engage.

I realised today my answer for you about why I don't want fear to be a part of my parenting technique/toolkit/whatever you want to call it. It's basically because I think that it is actually quite scary at times to be a child anyway. You don't have a lot of agency and all the time there are people deciding things for you. Now I do agree that if you give children too much freedom and power that that is actually very frightening for them and can go the other way, but I also feel that to be in a situation where you are browbeaten into submitting is a horrible feeling. Do you know that sick awful feeling when you feel trapped in a corner, and think "I really don't want to do/agree to this but I don't have any choice, and it's not fair." I think to force children into a position like that isn't right, I feel it's bullying, and it's not even helpful - it doesn't force them to change their minds! They might comply but (if it gets to that point) they will be very resentful about doing so. I just don't want that as part of our relationship. I know that I just wrote about pinning my son to the ground () and I think that that could perhaps be frightening as well, but I feel that at this point in our situation it is necessary and also not really the same thing - now if I was going to use it in order to sit on him until he agreed to clean his room, or say sorry or similar, then OK that would not be fair. But to interrupt a hyped up mood or violence then I think it is different. Like I said to him, if he loses control then I have to take control for him, which is not the same thing (frightening/threatening a child into gaining control would be.)

My other son is 6mo Bertie, I'll tell you in a few years if I've done any better with him. Would add a grin but it feels frivolous after I've been sobbing to my DH about all this.

Yes panic attack isn't the right word. It was just beyond what I would call a usual meltdown for him, and it felt very much a sad/scared thing rather than an angry/tantrum thing. By the end of the day the sting had gone out of them a bit; it felt like a bit like he was working himself up to see if he could calm down.

I shall look into PDA. It wasn't just when told to do something - later in the day he had one after I accidentally clipped some skin in his bike helmet - but yes that was the main trigger. Though really I think it is because DS1 is only 3 I think I am mainly expecting too much of him and/or expecting him to do something independently/easily all the time because he did it once or twice.

I want to respond about fear - I totally agree childhood is scary and your thoughts make me even more determined to stop scaring my own child. But I want to go to sleep too. Must rest for the better day tomorrow.

Sorry if I upset you :( It is horrible when you're struggling with it. I'm sure looking back it won't be as bad as you think but it's so hard when you're in the middle of it.

Meltdowns BTW are related to sad/scared feelings. The anger/violence is a precursor to that - lashing out usually comes from a place of fear.

Looking after yourself is so important and needs to be the first priority, so I'm glad you're going to get some sleep (child permitting :))

Yes a big part of parenting big-little kids (3-6) is realising that their development is now much slower and much more complex. For 0-3 it's pretty linear. They learn to do something, they can do it. The end. But then you see them picking up new skills/knowledge, and you expect it to stick. It's confusing that it doesn't. In reality, this is because the skills are different - it's not something physical, like walking, eating, a new word. They actually have to consciously remember, transfer knowledge from one situation to a totally different one, and deal with emotions which are sometimes new to them and if not new then newly intense/overwhelming. It's like trying to do an exam you've only half revised for, on a day that you have really bad PMT, oh, and you're really tired to boot - yes of course you're going to scream when somebody refuses you chocolate!

So a lot of reminding, stating expectations, empathising, guiding, setting them up to succeed rather than fail. Bloody exhausting!

Plus another thing, especially when you have a little one too - they can suddenly feel very grown up. I remember my friend saying of her three year old "She comes out with all of these things and I have these expectations of her and I somehow forget that she doesn't even know what 'tomorrow' is yet."

There are so many things that we take for granted and forget that children have to learn because they just don't know. Things like property/belonging. Children don't know that something in a shop, or that another child is playing with isn't theirs. Even if you tell them, they probably don't understand what "not yours" means. There are threads on here every week asking "When will my baby understand no?" - well, when you show her what it means. Otherwise small children would be frightened of the number nine, which sounds like the word for no in German. Babies, young children don't even have a concept of right and wrong let alone understand that this sound means "that's wrong".

When you find out that he doesn't really know something, and he's having a tantrum about it, that's not a teachable moment - the moment has passed and he's too upset to take any information in. Instead try to file that knowledge away. "He doesn't really know that the toys at playgroup are to share - perhaps he doesn't really know what sharing is about" "He doesn't understand yet that time wasted on one activity leads to less time for another activity" and try to bring it up at another time. When he has a friend over, ask him which toys he would like to put away to be only his, and which are OK for his friend to play with. Let him know that all the toys will stay at your house, when the friend goes home. Make a visual chart for getting ready to show him that being ready by X time leaves him spare time for Y fun activity. Use the statement When you... Then we can...

I also don't have time to post. I've been reading the posts and empathise. I have bullied mine today and used lots of horrible phrases hazy, including "I'm so fed up of being late for everything, you just all need to help a bit more"

And this afternoon after my nearly 3 year old dts just wouldn't listen and stop riding their bikes and were getting further and further from home til they hit the playground and then wanted to go in... 10 minutes before tea time (no way!!) then refused to ride home. One of the last times dt1 stopped and was screaming at me I lost my temper and told him.I really felt like smacking him. He was clearly shocked. The only positive I have to report is that I didn't smack him. I was a total bitch though. My excuses are tiredness, dt1 has a terrible cough waking him at night and I'm having trouble sleeping with shoulder and back pain, lateness and the fear the children don't have enough boundaries and are becoming more disrespectful and listening less plus I have their virus too and multiple really sore mouth ulcers. They always make me grumpy by themselves- I get them very frequently. The problem is more like I probably don't have firm enough boundaries with no not always meaning no and then I panic. Not their fault. I really can't keep saying I'll do better tomorrow. The lateness was entirely my own disorganisation this morning. I need to redo all the challenges and actually up my game, FFS.

Less self centred post coming soon.

Bertie you didn't upset me at all, don't worry! I love reading your posts they are always very thoughtful and tought provoking. The non-linear development is something I hadn't thought of but is very helpful. It's like potty training where you know they can to go on the toilet but they don't always remember to - found tht rather frustrating too as I wanted to say ' you can do this DS, why aren't you?!' but knew that was counter productive: if I managed to not get annoyed then I can do it now too.

Dreaming, it's so hard when you're run down and in pain yourself, hope today is a bit better. Are there particular areas you're worried about boundaries on?

I feel like my head's going to drop off I'm nodding along so much with this thread. Starting reading 'When Your Kids Push Your Buttons' last night too, which elicited a similar response.

Three-year-olds are hard, aren't they? Mine is just a firecracker, full of energy, doesn't stop chattering, no longer naps, clambers all over me, needs help or attention. All. The. Time. It's fricking exhausting! And she's relatively well behaved, really. My 6-month-old is an absolute breeze in comparison.

When people say 'parenting doesn't get any easier', I just think, well, that can't be true, can it? Surely?

I mean, I love her so, so much, but I'm in serious need of some headspace right now.

Oh it definitely got easier for me from three. I think everyone has parts that they struggle with, it's not as simple as saying it gets easier or it gets harder, because it's not that linear. For me 3-5 was the hardest so far, with a marked improvement from 5 and a major shift from 6. I may regret this later (!) but I don't see the teenage years being so hard for me, because most of the bits I struggle with are not being able to make DS do something that I think I should be able to make him do. As a teenager, I reckon I'll be off the hook somewhat, because it will actually be his responsibility. I'm OK at letting go and saying, well, he can fuck up, go ahead. And I am the person who has lived their entire adult life on second chances, so I don't think there's anything much he can do which would really bother or worry me seriously. Drugs I would struggle with, and prison. And I would be really gutted and distraught if he turned out to be violent or a rapist or something like that. But anything else (and even prison and drugs, to an extent) I think you can get past. Bad grades, teenage pregnancy, experimenting with your appearance, yeah they will put speed bumps in your way, but it's not the end of the road.

I think that if you want an idea of a linear progression, children get easier physically as they get older - they become more independent and you don't have to do as much for them. But their problems become more complex the older they get. A baby only needs food, comfort and love. A toddler needs to learn to navigate a world that you mostly control. A school aged child is starting to interact with others without you, but still mostly trusts you. A teenager's impulses often override their common sense and their decisions are higher stakes. A baby can't really ruin their own life at all. A toddler can only do so by injuring themselves, which you can mostly avoid. A teenager can make some bad decisions that have seriously far reaching consequences.

Seconded, mummybare - I've been regularly coming back to this thread and have been blown away by how eloquently you ladies have described SO MUCH of how I feel about parenting my 3 year old DS.
Can I ask if anyone has tried using time ins for managing meltdowns? I've read about it on aha parenting but am unsure if we ever make it through the anger to the fear or whatever underneath. He can lash out when he's angry so I often have to hold him and it just seems to ramp up the anger so he gets more angry about being held than about whatever it was in the first place. Time outs definitely don't work for us though, they just seem to bring out an incredibly defiant and goady side of my DS that I don't want to encourage.

Well there are generally two definitions of the phrase time in, so it depends which one you are using.

One is the same idea as time out (remove child from situation to calm down) but instead you sit with them rather than the isolation being a punishment.

The other is nothing to do with active behaviour management at all, and just means spending quality time with your child to strengthen the connection between you which supposedly reduces the need for time out (or other punishments).

If I am honest, I am less keen on Aha Parenting these days. I think it is very good when you have a child who is not prone to lashing out, but when your child does, it doesn't really work. I think Aha Parenting also comes very much from the idea that you're coming from a very authoritarian, disciplinarian, punitive parenting style. In short it's very American and I don't think it always translates very well. It's good on basics but really woolly on those times when nothing is working and you're really struggling with what to do. I find Andrea Nair is much better on this - she has been open in a couple of her posts that she really struggled herself in the past and from what I get from her posts they seem more practical.

If you have a child who is prone to meltdowns/violent tantrums/loss of control you need more than one approach, from all directions. You want to try to reduce the meltdowns, to begin with. That's a several direction approach in itself. You will know in yourself what your relationship/attachment/connection is like. If it's very good that might not be the problem at all. But if you're struggling to spend fun time together it's worth setting up short bursts of time where you set yourself up to win - follow their lead and don't try to steer anything, basically. Then there's communication and the shared agenda thing (this is in When Your Kids Push Your Buttons - basically it's taking into account what they want or are trying to do even if it's not possible, although it's explained in more detail in the book.) Trying to see things from their perspective.

Set them up to win in situations - make your preferred choice palatable for them, meet them halfway if you can. Of course if that's making things worse you may want to avoid negotiation at all. It's a hard line to draw but this is a rough idea. You could make your boundaries slightly stricter than you would ideally - then when they are pushing at them they're still within your comfort zone, which makes it easier to keep calm. But for some children it's best if boundaries adhere to a logic that they can clearly see or understand. Either way, always keep the boundary consistent - far more important than consistency in how it's dealt with, if you keep moving it then they will feel really insecure.

Realise that once you've got to the tantrum point you've lost the teaching moment. It might come back later - you can certainly talk to a child when they are calm. But often they are utterly exhausted by it and taking something new on board might be too much. But equally, it might confuse them if you leave it open ended, and you must give them the information about what went wrong so that they have it for another time. But see what I said above about this - rather than thinking "I must hammer this lesson home now!" instead try to take on board "Okay, he doesn't understand that " or "He was unable to _ because overrode it" (That might be something you can talk about to figure out). It might still be that you feel it's appropriate that there is some sanction and that is fine. In my experience sanctions which don't allow for immediate pushing back are better, but equally you can't make them too far ahead because it's too hard for a young child to understand or remember.

Identify particular triggers - if there's a pattern such as sensory stuff, tiredness, hunger, being asked to do something (that's always fun! :o) being approached in a particular way, a particular situation, a sensation of e.g. being out of control, fear, certain foods, etc etc. You won't always be able to avoid the triggers but if you're aware of them you can manage them better and possibly even head events off when you see them coming.

I know there are a lot of contradictions here - because, of course, all children are different. You will make mistakes while trying to work out what works and what doesn't. We are human and of course modelling how to deal with making a mistake and apologising and moving on is important too.

Then you have the part where you have to work out first aid/strategies for dealing with meltdowns as they happen. That could include stuff like: A calm down area of the house, redirection of hurting e.g. hitting/kicking a pillow or a balloon, a special song that you sing, sensory stuff like lights to look at, a "calm shaker" (coke bottle filled with glycerin and glittery stuff), getting a drink, going to a certain place in the house, screaming really loud, drawing, throwing things (safely). Be creative. If they are hurting people or damaging things and you can't contain it or redirect it then you do need to hold them or separate yourself from them e.g. by closing a door.

Sorry that ended up as an essay

Evening all!

Absolutely nodding away to the others describing so eloquently how hard it is scenario being mentioned.

I have tried a kind of time in. Moving one away and talking about why I'm not letting that behaviour carry on. The bit I don't get to is the crying also. In 'peaceful parent happy kids' (which is the aha parenting Laura Markham's book) it also talks about the anger subsiding and cathartic tears coming. I never get the tears either. I get a calmer child but no tears. However my biggest limiting factor is the third child; if I leave the other 2 unsupervised they hurt each other or get up to mischief, particularly the dts.

Epic meltdown by my dd in a shop today. We went into one shop, after biking there along a river path and going straight on to a playground (so not like they were bored or frustrated) but she just can't handle not being bought something herself. We were buying a birthday present for the afternoon parry they were going to. She was screaming that she wouldn't leave til I bought her something, that when we got home she'd hit me with a frying pan (wtf?!) and that she'd snatch my purse and get the money out and buy it anyway. I think I handled it really well. I stayed with her and said I wouldn't buy her something today..She was frustrated. I could hear she was angry. In the end she did help with my PIN number as usual. The shop keeper was lovely (small independent shop in tiny market town on anyway river here) . she had wound dt2 up to be like it too (thank goodness the strop- meister, dt1 had bypassed the shop with daddy) and then the lovely lady was empathising with me saying she also had a 4 year old daughter who's just like my dd. We found out both our dh's think our children are particularly awful in comparison to our friends similar aged children. That was a relief and meant I was slightly less embarrassed at the whole thing. Slightly.

So parented that bit ok but then again, didn't do well at other times of the day. Particularly bedtime.with dd as her shouted demands just went on and on all day..All day. I ended up telling her that it isn't nice to be shouted at all the time and she does need to think before she shouts, especially as she hasn't even asked and been told no most of the time. That was a waste of breath with a 4 year old though, right? Maybe shaming?! I hope not but worried a bit in hindsight.

and bertie I think that's great tour d's is identifying what won't help him calm down and starting to think of things to try. Well done you.

That's what I find so hard though bertie . Why is my dd so aggressive? She has just come.back from.her first 2 nights away at my dads. She had so much attention and so many activities. Has she come.back and found the constraints of one of me and three of then with 2 smaller and trickier ones hard to adapt to again? though it's not just now. She's been like this for months. My dad said she did no shouting at the table (she shouts random things all the time like the end of swimming lesson chant) or blowing rasberries at the table and just generally being disruptive there. At home she torments her brothers all the time. Or winds them up on purpose. She'd been doing some sticking and collaging. sticking into a notebook, collage on paper. This morning she ran into the room.room . shouting "who wants to hold these?" then when dt1 wanted to golf the collage she said no and snatched it back. I told her that was just teasing and now he could hold it til he'd finished. She went mental. Things like that, all the time. She's always hitting the boys.

Is that because she needs more attention? she's bored? There aren't enough boundaries? I don't know. We have tried to up her 1:1 time. Relatively successfully. She's lovely 1:1. Makes no difference when she's home. I don't know what to try next.

Anyway, got a boy waking up. Will continue tomorrow I hope.

It can be difficult when they've been away to readapt to being at home. I know DS struggled when he used to see his dad and I've seen other lone parents post about this phenomenon - it's quite well known. I know it was her grandad she went to see, but it's still different - being away from home, different rules (even if mostly the same), some focus on her too perhaps being a little bit spoiled and then back to normality, as well as feeling safe at home to let out her real feelings. Like the child who behaves perfectly at school but is a hurricane at home.

Thanks Bertie, that linear progression is extremely comforting for me. I think it's the constant assault on my senses I find hard - the noise, the clambering on me, the demands, the having to interact.

As an introvert, I find the lack of downtime a real struggle. And I do think, in general terms, this is probably the hardest age for that aspect. The nap has gone sob but I'm still looking after her most of the time.

Oh yes. It is very intense in terms of interaction especially when they don't have any siblings old enough to play with.

I am not an introvert but I also find it draining because I don't find they energise me as adult company does.

Bertie I don't have much time to post now, but thank you so much for your thoughtful post. You've given me a lot to ponder. I've been feeling increasingly disillusioned with aha parenting too (aka yes, that sounds great in principle, but what do I actually DO when they're still trying to throw something across the room?) I've liked Andrea Nair on facebook, but does she have more specific resources that you'd recommend?