Please share your good behaviour and discipline tips with me ..... at my wits end...

[ghosty]

OK .... DS is driving me and DH nuts at the moment .... and I really think we have created a monster
Everyone that knows him says what a great kid he is, polite, considerate, kind etc .... but at home he is usually a shocker - we have moments of the 'nice' DS but only if there is something in it for him.

We, as a couple, are against smacking (NO, this is NOT a smacking debate!) and we have always used positive reinforcement as much as we can.

But, at the age of almost 7 he has become very hard work .... attitude mainly, and hitting when he is angry and frustrated ....

I feel like we are caught between a rock and a hard place .... he expects rewards for good behaviour ... our own fault clearly as we have used sticker charts, pasta jars and a voucher system that we made up ourselves .... the other day he started negotiating with me what sort of rewards he could get now he is a 'big boy' ....
Sometimes I feel that this reward system that is so fashionable these days is teaching them an unrealistic view of life ..... In desperation the other day I explained to him that Daddy and I don't get rewards every time we are 'good' people ... our reward is freedom and the chance to live as decent a life as we can afford, the reward is seeing a smile of someone's face when you do something for them .... that sort of thing. The punishment for being 'bad' for an adult is the removal of privileges and at the worst case, prison ....

When I was a child I wouldn't even think about saying 'no' to my mother when she asked me to get dressed ... the consequences were too dire, but she loved me and I knew she did - I had a great childhood.

DS says 'No' to every bloody thing ... or he ignores the request completely .... and I feel utterly powerless .... I don't think he should get rewarded for putting his socks on the first time of asking .... but I can't and won't smack him for anything let alone not doing a simple task.

A few mumsnetters have posted in the past that they expect good behaviour and get it ... no need for rewards or punishment ... but HOW do you get that?????????????????????

The other day (the same day we had this chat about real life) DH said, "I don't want to come home tonight and find out that you have been difficult for mum all day, like yesterday" ... I don't know if that was the right thing to say but I was shocked when DS said, "And if I am naughty what will you do?"
DH was bereft of speech because what can he do? Bugger all really ....
Are we breeding a generation of 'Yeah, what you gonna do about it?" kids?

Help. I am worried.

i dont do rewards, except o na saturday when they get 50p each for tifying their room.

i dont do pasta jars, sticker charts etc.

but i do DO warnings, time outs and removal of toys if the 1st two dont work.

so if you say 'ds put your socks on' he says no' you say, 'ds put your socks on, if i have to ask again you will go into time out (1min for every year of their lives) if he says no again, put him into time out, i na quiet boring palce, and make him stay there. i rarely do this now with dd1 who is 6, but dd2 is timed out more atm.

Ghosty - have been through this a bit recently, where DD and DS (8and 6) decided to behave like the children off of Nanny McPhee for a temp nanny!
So much sympathy

We started a new reward chart, but rigerously implemented - he had to get 5 smilie faces in a row for a present that he really wanted - and dealing them out went to the nanny not us, so no temptation to fudge it to avoid the meltdown when the face at the end of the day wasn't smilie enough

Otoh, when the behaviour was at it;s worst then we did take things away from them, and if you think hard about it there are loads of things around them which are potential depravations - tv, games, sports fixtures, after school clubs, visits to/from friends, swimming, etc etc. We only did tv and games for one evening and we only have to threaten it now and they take us very seriously!

I do think that you ahve to be totally consistent - what you say you will do, you do. Hard though that might be

Tips for Good Behaviour and Discipline:
by Jampots

1. Dont feed your kids shit
2. Respect your children at all times and show them how to respect themselves.
3. Learn how to GLARE! in a menacing way thereby reducing the noise levels
4. Dont use words like "upset, angry" etc instead tell them if they misbehave you will be disappointed in them.
5. If they do misbehave ask them what punishment they would give if the roles were reversed - then give that (if its good enough)
6. enjoy spending time with your children.
7. still thinking....

and yes, my children are quite well behaved

Thanks misdee ....
We do time out too ... but it is more for my sake than his IYSWIM? And we do remove privileges and toys (we made him take his favouring remote controlled car to a charity shop once, for wilfully breaking another toy) ...

The problem is is that he doesn't seem to care that much - he was gutted about the car though ... the worst thing we can do is refuse computer time and playstation time (he has limited time on those anyway so every minute is precious to him ) ....

The problem is is that we are on holiday at the moment .... no computer (DH's laptop is out of bounds), no playstation, minimal toys, tiny flat -so no time out possible .... have to go out and do things anyway so can't deny bike rides etc as that would be unfair on DD ...
So, he knows that he won't lose out so his behaviour has been shocking ....
When can I begin to expect good behaviour in this situation without resorting to sanctions???? aaaagggghhhhh!

just relaised my post sounds like i am a right cow to my kids. i am not, they do et treats etc but not for behaviour. i have set a level of behaviour/ right/ wrong (ie not jumping on furniture, respect other peoples property etc) from a very young age.

the other day we walked home from school with 2 other families, their kdis were running over childrens front lawns, but i reminded my 2 that we dont do that as its someones garden. so they ran on the pathj instead.

Holiday has endless opportunity to earn pennies though!

20p a day as holiday spending money for following day, penny taken away for each transgression. What is left gets handed over the following morning to spend as they choose.

Only really works if one is good and other bad - as real punishment is watching the sibling stuff their faces with sweets while they get none! But it is very effective.

time out is still possible even in that situation. i have had to put dd1 in time out in tescos. corner of the shop, sat her on the foor out of the way and waited. got some very odd looks

First different personalities- just because one child is failry easy going and does what is exppected with minimal whinging (ds2 in my case at times) doesn't mean that another will (ds3 in our case )

People use reinforcement because it works- it works really well with very challenging behaviours as well. great if its social reinforcement but tangible rewards will work as well as long as they are strong enough. Something that was introduced into classroom with very challening pupils was a little beeper that beeped at a certain time interval (ever 5 mins say).Every time the teacher heard the beep she had to lok for something postive to say- (social reinforcement), and behaviour improved dramatically.

one thing I would do is draw up quite rigid boundaries with quite fixed rules, so he knows exactly what is expected of him- but make him work for his rewards. So find something he really wants (keep it vague) and make ds work for it . keep the system simple.

I agree an NT child does not need a reward for putting socks on - but maybe for the time being as he is being difficult he could be rewarded for getting dressed by a certain time with minimal fuss. (or alternatively if it'll work bin the rewards for something simple like that and race him). Just say "you are not getitng a reward for pputtiong your sock on but if you're dressed by time x then you'll get a ..... ready steady go". Keep the rewards for difficult tasks and fade them as soon as he is doing whatever it is independently. Recently we had problems with ds2 at mealtimes (prob because ds1 and ds3 needed a lot of mealtime attention) so we introduced a reward system (he got a velcro cat if he ate his whole meal nicely, once he got 5 he got a 'present" (usually a lollipop or something small). We kept that in place for about 2 weeks then gradually faded it. His mealtime behaviiur is much improved (and I remember to praise a lot as well especially at mealtimes). Even with ds1 we fade a reinforcer as soon as we can (especially if its tangible, but even social I tend to spread out and make him work a little harder for).

The thing about reinforcers is that ds has to want them. It has to be something he wants. You need to pair a strong reinforcer with a difficult behaviour. If the reinforcer is something he could take or leave the whole system will not work. Fading them is really imnportant as well. Think carefully about what you are using to reinforce and what you are reinforcing.

Remember that if your ds wants a reaction from you, then winding you up (and you responding) is reinforcing for him. That may be more reinforcing that whatever reward system you are using. Adults having reactions can be funny.

Hiya Ghosty. Sorry to hear that your DS is being (for want of a better word) a total pain.

What can I say...? hmmmm

Well, whatever you decide to do the key is consistency. Consistency till it hurts (you, DH or DS)!

So... he's come to over expect rewards. Fine. Time to end them then. Simply tell the boy (that's what I call mine either boychild, girlchild or number 4... I forget their actual names and call them by each others... knew I should've stopped at 1... anyhoo.... I digress) that he's getting to be a big boy by now and so doesn't need to get rewards for everything. I would tell him (though I may wake tomorrow with a better idea) that the time has come for him to be more responsible for himself.

What is it that you would like him to be doing? Tell him clearly. Then (as Dr Phil says) find his currency and use it. It might be... tv time, sweets, play dates.... If he does not do what he is supposed to do there will be a consequence. Whatever you have said that the consequence will be (and please do not speak out in haste) you have to follow it through. Eg.. boychild I want you to tidy your room. Boychild says "no. What are you going to give me for doing it?" (After resisting the urge to say many inappropriate things....) Simply tell him that if his room isn't tidied then there will be no tv for 2 days. If he doesn't tidy his room... no tv for 2 days.

It will be hard work, but it will pay dividends. I think that I'm reasonably convinced that he's had it too good (because Ghosty my darling you are a lovely woman and not mean and vile like me) and it's time he learnt that all is not rosy in the garden.

I don't think that more "if you do/behaviour like this you'll get" will work. He's over saturated. So it's time to take away. Sometimes we none of us, appreciate what we've got til we ain't got it no more.

Those were just my instant thoughts. I do hope that you get it sorted and soon. I do think it will take a while, but you'll be pleasantly surprised. (Sorry for the waffle in the middle. I would just like to, once again, draw everyone's attention to the fact that I have a Shakespeare exam on Thursday and my brain is now going into meltdown).

oh yes, lots of praise for good behaviour. dd2 lighjts up and bounces when she gets a 'well done!' with clapping hands.

oh JJ - I do love you

I love the description of fading, as if it was part of the tool rather than rather neglectful parenting which can't keep the reward system going once the behaviour has stopped being a problem

sounds like tiny flat etc could be making it worse. I bet causing a scene is currently more reinforcing for him (some excitement) than whatever you are reinforcing him with.

DS1 loves even a hint of riledness on my part. I have to practice bored.

i also find that routines work well, especially for dd2. so in the mornings its she gets up, has a wash, gets dressed then breakfast. thats minimal fuss. no tv till all of the above is done. except on weekends.

same for bedtime.

i know its sounds mad, but even when dh was in hospital, as logn as the basic routine was in place, their behaviour was great. if anything rocked it, then it all went to pot.

God no its an essential part of the tool! Otherwise it doesn't work!

attended ( a truly excellent life chaning)) course last week, included a talk on reinforcement so its fresh. You're earlier post had the key though- it has to be something they really want.

ds1 btw is imitating oral motor movements now (a week after the course- saw a big response when I changed my reinforcement!). I actually thought he would never be able to do that. And today he said "ahhhh" (copying me). All thanks to reinforcement.

oh and one big tip from the course was to get yourself a dolphin trainer (they're the kings and queens of reinforcement apparently they're so good you don't even know they're doing it )

Thanks jampots and soapbox too ...

I think the reason I am at my wits end is that I do all that stuff ... healthy eating, lots of exercise for them, clear boundaries of what is acceptable and what is not ....

He CAN be fabulous .... especially around other people .... but with just us, he is impossible ... and he is particularly bad when DH is around. We are aware that he is constantly vying for DH's attention .... we are living apart at the moment so we don't see much of DH .... so we are aware of that ....
The thing that worries me more than anything is his anger and the way he lashes out, at me particularly, if things don't go his way - and he hits his 2 year old sister when she annoys him .... he gets soooo angry .... And he KNOWS that hitting is unacceptable for any reason EVER .... he has known that for ever ..... but he still does it .... I told him 3 days ago that he wasn't allowed to touch anyone unless it was in a nice way (he will come up to me for a cuddle and then hit me ) but yesterday I had had enough and told him that he can't touch anyone ever for any reason and that he had to keep his hands to himself at all times.

I will give you an example .... I ask him to get dressed - I get ignored, I tell him to get dressed, I get ignored, I tell him to get dressed if he wants his computer time that evening ... he says, "Oh, all RIGHT!" walks past me and shoves me hard in the hip with his shoulder with an angry belligerent look on his face .....
This is a common scenario ..... and I hate it ....

That is interesting - every time we tread the same path over again, I always kick myself for forgetting to keep the reward chart going! Although I can see that in letting it go, and then restarting in relation to a specific behaviour issue, it stops it becoming rather boring and samey!

Wow that DS1 is getting some oral movement - that was the first step to DS speaking - a speech card with a picture of the wind on it and he had to go 'oooooooohhhhhhhhhh'! It was with Kathryn

Hope it is the start of some new skills for DS1!

ghosty - have you considered letting him take up a martial art of some description - positive ways to channel his energy and also good for learning self discipline and respect. Sounds like he's missing his dad and can only lash out at you. I feel for you Can his dad spend more quality time with him ?

ok.

try

'can you get dressed please'

ignore

'ds can you get dressed nicely, otherwise you will lose xxxx, please do it nicely and calmly or you will lose xxx anyway'

if he barges into you like a mini teenager then he loses his half hour pc time.

he knows hitting isnt acceptable. give him a bean bag to pound/kick/punch into if he has a lot of anger and frustration atm. but he can only hit that, not anyone else.

Arse ... am missing all the other posts in my slow typing ...

Thanks all, will go back to read what others say now

Ghosty - DS is very physical too - but gets away with it really, because DD is older not younger.

It is one of our 3 rules though - that lead to depravation! So if he hurts anyone then he loses 1/2 hour of tv/games time. If he does it 3 times in one day - he loses the whole of the following day (hasn't happened yet)!

Good behaviour gets rewards - bad behaviour gets depravation!

The hurting you is more serious though

Agree about martial art.

Also would put yourslef out of the situation, ensure he can't 'accidentally" hit you. get one of these . Set it for say 5 mins then say "ok ds you have 5 minutes to get dressed, if I come back in and you're ready you get a..... . " Make it sound fun though. It might have to be something he REALLY wants first of all (5 mins on a computer game say- again set the timer)Then leg it out the room before he has time to hit you.

I would try:

"Its time to get dressed now. These are the clothes Ive put out for you." Give him 5 minutes to get dressed and then if not dressed take him out in pjs or whatever he's wearing - i swear you'll only do it once! He doesnt think you are going to carry out what you say so you need to prove you are regardless of how much it hurts you. The same applies to tidying up/eating his breakfast/everything else - make sure he knows you are boss and not him.

Do 7 year olds have a surge of something btw? DS1 has started hitting me very recently as well when cross.