Please share your good behaviour and discipline tips with me ..... at my wits end...

[ghosty]

OK .... DS is driving me and DH nuts at the moment .... and I really think we have created a monster
Everyone that knows him says what a great kid he is, polite, considerate, kind etc .... but at home he is usually a shocker - we have moments of the 'nice' DS but only if there is something in it for him.

We, as a couple, are against smacking (NO, this is NOT a smacking debate!) and we have always used positive reinforcement as much as we can.

But, at the age of almost 7 he has become very hard work .... attitude mainly, and hitting when he is angry and frustrated ....

I feel like we are caught between a rock and a hard place .... he expects rewards for good behaviour ... our own fault clearly as we have used sticker charts, pasta jars and a voucher system that we made up ourselves .... the other day he started negotiating with me what sort of rewards he could get now he is a 'big boy' ....
Sometimes I feel that this reward system that is so fashionable these days is teaching them an unrealistic view of life ..... In desperation the other day I explained to him that Daddy and I don't get rewards every time we are 'good' people ... our reward is freedom and the chance to live as decent a life as we can afford, the reward is seeing a smile of someone's face when you do something for them .... that sort of thing. The punishment for being 'bad' for an adult is the removal of privileges and at the worst case, prison ....

When I was a child I wouldn't even think about saying 'no' to my mother when she asked me to get dressed ... the consequences were too dire, but she loved me and I knew she did - I had a great childhood.

DS says 'No' to every bloody thing ... or he ignores the request completely .... and I feel utterly powerless .... I don't think he should get rewarded for putting his socks on the first time of asking .... but I can't and won't smack him for anything let alone not doing a simple task.

A few mumsnetters have posted in the past that they expect good behaviour and get it ... no need for rewards or punishment ... but HOW do you get that?????????????????????

The other day (the same day we had this chat about real life) DH said, "I don't want to come home tonight and find out that you have been difficult for mum all day, like yesterday" ... I don't know if that was the right thing to say but I was shocked when DS said, "And if I am naughty what will you do?"
DH was bereft of speech because what can he do? Bugger all really ....
Are we breeding a generation of 'Yeah, what you gonna do about it?" kids?

Help. I am worried.

The Christopher Green book on 6-12 year olds may be better if you are going to "do a book". You got very angry at Biddulph last time you read it and I had to draw your attention to his terrible hair.

Aah, seven years old boys, lovely aren't they? [sarky voice!]

With regards to the hitting, I found ds1 had real problems with his temper around this age. I talked with him about his anger and in the end we agreed if he ever felt that angry that 'everything goes red' (his words) that he would come straight to me and tell me that's how he felt. I would grab him into a huge bear hug and hold him really tight. He would rage for a little longer, then have a cry and then relax into the hug.

We did it quite often for a littl while and then it became more infrequent. I think the strength of his own emotions frightened him and this seemed to help him deal with them.

He also goes to kick boxing. I'd def recommend getting your ds into something like that. WHen you can see he's getting wound up, ask him to show you some of th enew moves he's learnt. He gets rid of some of the agression by showing you and you get to give him lots of praise while doing it.

Also, if I can see he's arsing about and not getting ready for school, I'll say you've got half an hour on playstation this evening. You've got 5 mins to get dressed. Anything over that and you lose the equivalent from your computer time.

(this also works in reverse, DS1 has problems with his writing and not wanting to practise it. I'll say however long you practise for, you earn on the pc)

Hope things improve for you

Oh yes threebob ... his hair - terrible isn't it?
I found SB's first bit about boys under 3 shouldn't go to any kind of childcare and should stay with their mums very upsetting as I had to go to work when DS was a baby (until he was just over 2 when I moved to NZ and became a SAHM) ... so SB's theory doesn't really work for working mums ...
But I definitely recognise that theory that up until the age of 6 boys need their mums then from 6 they need their dads more ... which is a bit hard considering our situation and DS's age now . Happily it is only temporary and we are not in the situation of other families where the dad may be absent on a permanent basis.
Ian Grants book (kiwi parenting guru - Parents Inc) is very similar with regards to boys growing up .... can't remember the name off the top of my head .... title very similar to Raising Boys (something like Growing Boys into Great Men or the like)

Does anyone else have the problem of 'not getting' their DS but totally 'getting' their DD? I feel I am constantly trying to work DS out but never have that problem with DD .... maybe it is me but I felt I 'knew' DD the minute she was born but felt, with DS that I had been handed a baby and he could have been any baby. I don't know if it is a 'boy/girl' thing or perhaps a 'first baby/second baby' thing .... but I don't seem to worry so much about DD and her personality traits/behaviour ... and she is no pushover, she is actually harder work than DS in many ways - much more wilful as a toddler and a terrible eater ....

ghosty
I wonder if that could be because ds was your first, and I was certainly more 'wary' of him as a baby that I was dd.
One thought relating to your situation at the moment, would ds respond to dh asking him to help you take responsibility, as dh isn't around to help at the moment. He could perhaps have some little jobs of his own - even if it's pouring you a glass of wine at night - taking out the bins etc. Maybe asked in a 'man to man' way, it could help?
It must be such an unsettling time for you all.

That is a good idea Fairyjay .... I think DS would respond to that .....
DH and I decided not to put too much responsibility on DS "You are a big boy and look after your mother and your sister" type thing ...

Mainly because that is what my parents did to my older brother (my dad travelled a lot too and was rarely home when we were little) and I think he suffered - missed out on a childhood really.

But a bit of responsibility (put in the right words) certainly won't do DS any harm ....

I do like steve the hair man's "can you handle it?" tacked on the end of a request. If he feels he is not "a man" because he doesn't put his socks on it could work.

Don't get me started on Ian Grant.

I was thinking about this in bed last night(!) and recalling my boys younger days, when dh worked a regular two weeks away/two weeks home cycle. Ds1 was the harder work (ds2 had very poor health so that was the major concern with him). DS1 went into bad behaviour mode when dh got home and it was obvious ds had an issue with dh 'usurping' ds1's position as Alpha male of the house. Luckily dh doesn't have issues himself about that sort of thing so for the most part we would let things ride as much as possible and it would settle down within days.

I think it's really important to work out what's important and what's not. Putting socks on would not be a problem to me. The worst that can happen is they'll get cold feet! Along with this, try to appear unmoved by whatever's going on, even if underneath you're seething. It's pretty boring for most children if they can't get a rise from you.

Otoh, violence is something to be stopped and here I think vigilance is part of the answer, (though I don't have that much experience here as my ds's aren't the physical types - it's dd2 who likes to bash me!). I would try to avoid being in a position where I can be bumped into or jostled but at the same time not give the impression I was evading him as a person, iyswim.

We didn't do reward/punishment schemes as such because they weren't invented in the 70's/early 80's but one thing I did learn was that any punishments used were best if they were short and fitted into your life-style. Eg it's no good to say no TV for a month if you have only one TV and want another child to be able to see something. If ds challenges you with 'What you gonna do about it?' it's worth waiting until he's calmer and having a talk, asking them what they'd do in the same situation.

And I agree with Jampots, The Glare is a very useful tool to learn, along with eyebrow raising! Good luck, it's awful while it lasts but you'll come out the other end eventually.

I have read this thread and it is like my own life. My ds will be 7 in April. Is an angel for everyone else, but it is like i'm speaking swahili to him. It's so frustrating and so easy to lose my rag. We don't have the violence, just the indifference and the cheekiness (to dh especially who lose his temper big time) Like you say ghosty, I would never have dared speak to my parents as he does, or be as defiant, so I sympathise with you. I just wish he would do as he was asked, and not laugh or smirk when he's being told off. That's the biggy imo

Haven't read all the replies so sorry if I'm just repeating others. Your son's obviously a nice kid who knows how to behave 'cause he does it for others so I'd try this...

Pretend you don't care about him. Ask him to do something once, if he doesn't do it, say 'oh well, if you don't want to get ready for swimming that's fine. I really don't care that much'. And leave him. Walk right away. If he comes out with cheek like 'what can you do about it' say deadpan, 'yeah you're right and I don't think I'm that bothered anyway'. And walk away. Show no emotion when he's being a bugger.

Whenever possible, avoid any sort of negative-attention battle and more or less tell him you don't give a shit. (I know this gets tough when you need to get out the house for school or whatever but try something like, 'you can explain to your teacher 'cause it doesn't bother me if you're late' - give yourselves extra time!)

I'm not a fan of tangible reward systems for teh very reason you say - kids can end up expecting something for the simplest common decency.

His reward is smiles and attention and encouragement and love from his mum and dad. That's what all kids want. Punishment is withdrawing it.

You are ignoring completely the bad behaviour for the shortish time it carries on. You are showing no emotion at the antics. You are switching off to maintain calm.

Sometimes dh has turned stoney and igniored me if I'm been acting like an arse. Makes me think I've been acting like an arse and I go and calm down. I've done the same with him. If dh acted like that with me for any sustained period, then it'd be a problem.

I have part read the Alfie Kohn book mentioned by Aviatrix and find I agree so much with what it is saying. The punishment/reward system is only a short term fix and the stakes are likely to keep getting upped. At some point it reaches a limit and where do you go from there? I am also waiting for another of Alfie Kohn's books to arrive "Unconditional Parenting: Moving from Rewards and Punishments to Love and Reason" which should be very interesting if it's as good as the one I'm reading now.

Dh will completely ignore me if I try to get a rise out of him and cause an argument just cause I feel grumpy. He will just walk out of the room.

It works brilliantly, saves me making an arse of myself and we have been happily married for nearly 10 years.

Ok, point of clarity. You don't care about his strop. You don't care a jot if he's going to miss his swimming. You're not the least bit bothered about going bonkers at him if he disobeys you. By doing this, you give the impression you don't care about him when he is in a bolshy mood.

I'm talking basic ignore the negative stuff by walking away and not reacting. I do not advocate telling your kids you don;t love them. That would be cruel.

Pointy ... it is ok ... I knew what you meant

There is however one teeny bit of your post that I didn't agree with, but I know you didn't really mean it: "His reward is smiles and attention and encouragement and love from his mum and dad."

I definitely come from the school of unconditional love .... and I wouldn't withold my love of DS from him if he was naughty .... but I know what you mean about smiles and encouragement being reward enough for him ...

The Alpha Male thing that you talk about Suedonim strikes a chord ... things are definitely harder when DH is around - it has always been that way with DS' behaviour and is particularly bad at the moment as DH is away and so when we see him it is so much more intense.
An example was today .... this morning he had a few moments of being particularly difficult (but it stopped when I explained that when we got home he was risking cutting his computer time down .... he he he ) but when we were at coming home to NZ today, he was absolutely marvellous ... a real trooper, helping me out (obviously it was just us, we left DH in Melbourne) ... reading books to his sister while I checked in and filled out departure and arrival cards, behaving impeccably on the 4 hour flight, helping me get the bags off the carousel, pushing the pushchair while I pushed the luggage trolley - all without asking .... he was an angel. Really good company and a pleasure to be with (which is more than I can say for his chair kicking sister ... )

When he went to bed tonight I gave him a hug (a spikey one ) and told him how proud I was of him and what a great job he did today. His response? Well, first it was, "You haven't got lipstick on have you?" as I went towards him puckered for a kiss but then it was, "Do I get more playstation time then?"

Sigh .... I really feel like I have screwed up.

I do have the 'glare' and I am very good at raising my eyebrow .... I perfected both those skills when I was a teacher. In those days I could silence a crowd of 250 rowdy kids by just entering the assembly hall .... Now this is just ONE child and he is MINE

animal behaviour

Havent read all the messages so apologies if I am reiterating but with my son who is 3.5 we also do rewards for good behaviour. He has a treat box and every friday he can pick somehting out of it if he has been a good boy at nursery, helped my with a few little chores and been helpful and kind. These treats arent much..a sticker book, toy car, colouring book (nothing over £3)but it gives him real pleasure to pick somehting out himself. If he is not a good boy he doesnt get anything. Also if he is being really naughty -which ALL kids are sometimes- I take toys or dvds away as punishment. It works. A few hours or days without a favourite toy or dvd/video and he'll get the message but you have to both be consistent. Good luck