Please share your good behaviour and discipline tips with me ..... at my wits end...

[ghosty]

OK .... DS is driving me and DH nuts at the moment .... and I really think we have created a monster
Everyone that knows him says what a great kid he is, polite, considerate, kind etc .... but at home he is usually a shocker - we have moments of the 'nice' DS but only if there is something in it for him.

We, as a couple, are against smacking (NO, this is NOT a smacking debate!) and we have always used positive reinforcement as much as we can.

But, at the age of almost 7 he has become very hard work .... attitude mainly, and hitting when he is angry and frustrated ....

I feel like we are caught between a rock and a hard place .... he expects rewards for good behaviour ... our own fault clearly as we have used sticker charts, pasta jars and a voucher system that we made up ourselves .... the other day he started negotiating with me what sort of rewards he could get now he is a 'big boy' ....
Sometimes I feel that this reward system that is so fashionable these days is teaching them an unrealistic view of life ..... In desperation the other day I explained to him that Daddy and I don't get rewards every time we are 'good' people ... our reward is freedom and the chance to live as decent a life as we can afford, the reward is seeing a smile of someone's face when you do something for them .... that sort of thing. The punishment for being 'bad' for an adult is the removal of privileges and at the worst case, prison ....

When I was a child I wouldn't even think about saying 'no' to my mother when she asked me to get dressed ... the consequences were too dire, but she loved me and I knew she did - I had a great childhood.

DS says 'No' to every bloody thing ... or he ignores the request completely .... and I feel utterly powerless .... I don't think he should get rewarded for putting his socks on the first time of asking .... but I can't and won't smack him for anything let alone not doing a simple task.

A few mumsnetters have posted in the past that they expect good behaviour and get it ... no need for rewards or punishment ... but HOW do you get that?????????????????????

The other day (the same day we had this chat about real life) DH said, "I don't want to come home tonight and find out that you have been difficult for mum all day, like yesterday" ... I don't know if that was the right thing to say but I was shocked when DS said, "And if I am naughty what will you do?"
DH was bereft of speech because what can he do? Bugger all really ....
Are we breeding a generation of 'Yeah, what you gonna do about it?" kids?

Help. I am worried.

Actually, no, I will talk to kittywits now ... I will come back Suedonim et al later.

Kittywits, firstly - I am NOT a shithead who abuses my children
Secondly - I don't/won't smack my child because I don't want to. I have smacked him in the past and I made a decision never to do it again as I found it served no purpose. I CANNOT smack my child and walk away thinking, "Excellent, that was a job well done." Just like I feel now that the reward system is teaching an warped view of real life (Do you get a material reward every time you stop at a red light? NO), hitting a child will also teach them a warped view of real life (Do you get out of your car and punch the guy that cut you up on the road? NO - well, I hope you don't).
I know there is a better way ... rewards have backfired on us and hitting WILL NOT WORK ... I DO NOT WANT TO CAUSE MY CHILD PHYSICAL PAIN HOWEVER NAUGHTY HE IS. Why would I want to?

I know I have gone to the other extreme (rewards vs hitting) but I also know there is a middle ground and I am trying to find that balance.

Actually, no, I will talk to kittywits now ... I will come back Suedonim et al later.

Kittywits, firstly - I am NOT a shithead who abuses my children
Secondly - I don't/won't smack my child because I don't want to. I have smacked him in the past and I made a decision never to do it again as I found it served no purpose. I CANNOT smack my child and walk away thinking, "Excellent, that was a job well done." Just like I feel now that the reward system is teaching an warped view of real life (Do you get a material reward every time you stop at a red light? NO), hitting a child will also teach them a warped view of real life (Do you get out of your car and punch the guy that cut you up on the road? NO - well, I hope you don't).
I know there is a better way ... rewards have backfired on us and hitting WILL NOT WORK ... I DO NOT WANT TO CAUSE MY CHILD PHYSICAL PAIN HOWEVER NAUGHTY HE IS. Why would I want to?

I know I have gone to the other extreme (rewards vs hitting) but I also know there is a middle ground and I am trying to find that balance.

agree that 'How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...' is a useful book

Sorry - I've just realised that I've written an essay! As you can see, I've been giving this punishment/reward/motivation question a lot of thought recently!

Ghosty, who said you were a shit head, how horrible? it certainly wasn't me and if you don't want to smack that's fine. I suggest you don't misread my posts though.

I also agree with you Issymum ... that taking away playstation/computer (which he doesn't have that much either, which is why he loves it so much _ lol) is really, at the moment, his motivation.

Today he hit his sister, so I told him he had lost his computer time. He tried to argue with me and negotiate. I told him that there were going to be no more warnings - one hit and that would be the end of computer for one day. He lost it, screamed and shouted, slammed the door, told me to shut up etc ... I stayed calm (while grinding my teeth to stubs) and told him that if he carried on he would lose it tomorrow too .... he went red then purple .... so I just said, calmly, "Control your temper because you will find I won't give in." We stared at eachother for a minute or so .... like a bloody Clint Eastwood movie ... you could see the tumbleweed in the background ... And then it was like he deflated ... incredible! He walked away, I walked away, then a few minutes later he was playing hide and seek with DD.
I am bloody exhausted ....

Sorry kittywits ... I did misread it didn't I? ... It's been a hard day ... sorry

That's all rIght Ghosty I 've had a pig of a morning as well . Good luck with it all

Suedonim, my mum was very vague about what she did with my brother and my dad ... it was 30 odd years ago .... but she did say that the best way was for DB and DF to stay away from eachother for a few days when my dad came home. At the age that DS is now that is virtually impossible - because DS is sooo desperate to see his dad and play with him that he goes overboard on the 'look at me' thing ... classic attention seeking thing. Unfortunately it was only on the last day we were in Melbourne last week that DH took DS out for a few hours on his own ... maybe he should have done that on the first day and we wouldn't have had the nightmare we did.

The imminent move is a problem ... and DS may well have problems elsewhere ... he has become one of a foursome of friends at school and he is very worried about 'losing' his best friend to the other 2 (all of whom are delightful boys) - especially as we will be moving away
Also, one of DS's big issues is that he is a terrible sleeper ... always has been and up until 6 months ago he coped alright most of the time with it ... but lately I believe it is really catching up on him. He is also low in iron (he had blood tests a few weeks ago) despite a good diet and the doctor thinks he has a problem absorbing iron ... iron deficiency causes grumpiness apparently ....

Last night BOTH my children cried themselves to sleep missing Daddy . I am drained .... physically and emotionally .... I take my hat off to all lone parents out there - I really do ... I am so thankful that this is only a temporary measure.

kitywits

oh ghosty, I am SO proud of you! The way you dealt with him about the loss of computer time was spot on, wasn't it - and had the desired effect! I think it's so hard when you are a very nurturing parent, to do that 'clint eastwood' thing (brilliant description!) but my dh has helped me alot with this saying that boys, in particular, really NEED clear boundaries; they actually need us to be able to strongly, clearly, tell them what the limits are sometimes. It goes against the grain sometimes, as we'd rather have all our interactions with our boys be nice and friendly, but the odd 'staring out' session is necessary I think!

And also one of the main things that you have done there is tell him that you are not going to back down - so important that he knows that....

ooh, well done!

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Thanks sunny ... I think this thread has helped me enormously ... I really needed to focus and bring it all back on track ...
So ... my plan of action:
Bin reward system as a rule of everything ... but keep treats and rewards just for nice things rather than rewards for behaviour.
Praise good behaviour, don't sweat the small stuff but penalise (computer/playstation) for bad stuff.
Adopt zero tolerance for hitting.
Save anger and disappointment (mine) for big stuff so it means more rather than just always being naggy grumpy mummy.
Don't wear lipstick ever
Buy Clint Eastwood soundtrack for when we have a stand off ...
Develop "Go on, Punk, Make My Day" line ....

Sorry, its been a long day ... a long month actually .... I need a lie down

ggglimpopo ... EXCELLENT post! I love it!

The other day I heard on the radio a well known (in NZ anyway) parenting guru talk about teenagers ... he talked about doing what you describe with teenagers and tidying rooms.
His story was hilarious: He asked his teenage DD to tidy her room and she ignored him. He told her if she didn't do it she would find her clothes in the driveway .... she ignored him. So the next day she came home from school to find the bushes in their driveway festooned with her clothes, bras and knickers nicely decorating the bushes nearest the road ...

I thought that was hilarious ... but I am aware that other nice mumsnetters might be horrified at that ...

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Put however much chocolate or money you would normally give him in a jar. every time he is naughty, take some out - not to be returned, ever! They cannot earn it back, otherwise they think they can do as they please as long as they are good later. His reward for being good is to not lose any more!

I don't do rewards for good behaviour, other than shedloads of praise, unless we are stuck in a real rut.
I have found that carrying through consequences really does work (a la Gggiglimpopo). I always have a little mental list of threats to issue. It could be no TV, early bed, no game time with Mummy, etc etc. We all know what things our children enjoy. Then I ruthlessly carry through. I issue the "threat" after warnings & if I don't get compliance then I carry through - ALWAYS.
There is no point in spouting rubbish about Santa not coming at Christmas or not going to see Granny in 4 weeks time. The consequence has to be felt immediately & has to be something that is straightforward to carry through.
I find it works really well, because my kids know with absolute certainty that if I say something, I really do mean it.
If your DS says & "yeah what will you do" - have that mental list ready!!!!
Good luck Ghosty

It sounds as if you're well on the way to solving this, Ghosty. I agree with other's advice re threats and meaning it. My 17 dd didn't come home one night when she was supposed to, so I went (wearing my pyjamas with sheep on them!) to her boyfriend's house and hauled her out in the middle of the night. She has never failed to tell me about her arrangements since, even though she is now 19 and legally can do as she pleases.

You all have a lot on your plate atm but I think being consistent will help ds and even if he's off-colour (poor little chap!) he'll still appreciate the security that gives him. If he doesn't have to spend so much time subconsciously weighing up the pros and cons of rewards/punishments his behaviour may well calm down in general as it's one less thing going on in the busy mind of a 7yo. You may find a bit of 'Daddy & me' time helps ds when dh comes home, nothing complex just some bonding time. I know it's so hard on the returner as everyone wants to tell their story and everyone's excited etc so dh needs to ready for it. Otoh, being not too pally to begin with may be the order of the day, while everyone shifts into their usual positions again - it's a case of suck-it-and-see as to which is best for you.

"control your temper because I will not back down"

Brilliant line. I am filing that one in the mental roladex.

Forgive me, I haven't read all the posts either, but your original one rings a real bell. My ds1 is about to turn 8 and around about two years ago he was so similar to your description. He still has his moments, but they are fewer and further between. Sorry if the following has already been suggested, and I must say that I don't feel that I "mastered" my ds' behaviour, I think that he largely grew out of it, not long after his 6th birthday, but:
Does he take Omega 3's? Ds1 (and now ds2 is the same) would not take it when he had to taste it at all, so couldn't until he was able to swallow the capsules. This coinceded (or not?) with the improvements.
Also, I read a suggestion by Tanya Byron which is pretty effective. I absolutely agree about star charts etc and find that all they do is create expectation of reward for everything, not least in other members of the family. However, her system, and it was specifically for slightly older children, was that you give a black cross for unacceptable behaviour - this should be determined before starting eg every time he answers back, or slams a door or whatever. Start with one punishable behaviour, and increase as you feel necessary. Three crosses make a sad face, and a sad face was, for us, no telly. I in fact extended it that we had to have three "sad face free" days in a row to earn telly. The good thing about this system is that they can see their chances slipping away and are able to turn things around themselves.
The last thing I want to say, which I do now with him, is I lower myself to his level and say very quietly, "that behaviour is unacceptable and it will stop now". Then I follow it up with asking him to go to his room for 10 mins (with the kitchen timer) and to come down as a nicer person, or by asking him to sit up and eat up without any further comment or something similar, calm and commanding.
I have to say that sometimes I am so exasperated I lose it completely and he just gets screamed at but generally things are under control.
I really do sympathise. My ds is also an angel in public and at school and essentially a very nice child. It is so upsetting to get this horrid behaviour at home.