Please share your good behaviour and discipline tips with me ..... at my wits end...

[ghosty]

OK .... DS is driving me and DH nuts at the moment .... and I really think we have created a monster
Everyone that knows him says what a great kid he is, polite, considerate, kind etc .... but at home he is usually a shocker - we have moments of the 'nice' DS but only if there is something in it for him.

We, as a couple, are against smacking (NO, this is NOT a smacking debate!) and we have always used positive reinforcement as much as we can.

But, at the age of almost 7 he has become very hard work .... attitude mainly, and hitting when he is angry and frustrated ....

I feel like we are caught between a rock and a hard place .... he expects rewards for good behaviour ... our own fault clearly as we have used sticker charts, pasta jars and a voucher system that we made up ourselves .... the other day he started negotiating with me what sort of rewards he could get now he is a 'big boy' ....
Sometimes I feel that this reward system that is so fashionable these days is teaching them an unrealistic view of life ..... In desperation the other day I explained to him that Daddy and I don't get rewards every time we are 'good' people ... our reward is freedom and the chance to live as decent a life as we can afford, the reward is seeing a smile of someone's face when you do something for them .... that sort of thing. The punishment for being 'bad' for an adult is the removal of privileges and at the worst case, prison ....

When I was a child I wouldn't even think about saying 'no' to my mother when she asked me to get dressed ... the consequences were too dire, but she loved me and I knew she did - I had a great childhood.

DS says 'No' to every bloody thing ... or he ignores the request completely .... and I feel utterly powerless .... I don't think he should get rewarded for putting his socks on the first time of asking .... but I can't and won't smack him for anything let alone not doing a simple task.

A few mumsnetters have posted in the past that they expect good behaviour and get it ... no need for rewards or punishment ... but HOW do you get that?????????????????????

The other day (the same day we had this chat about real life) DH said, "I don't want to come home tonight and find out that you have been difficult for mum all day, like yesterday" ... I don't know if that was the right thing to say but I was shocked when DS said, "And if I am naughty what will you do?"
DH was bereft of speech because what can he do? Bugger all really ....
Are we breeding a generation of 'Yeah, what you gonna do about it?" kids?

Help. I am worried.

I see your point aviatrix. A parent's emotional switch-off might be seen as 'I don't love you just now' and maybe som eparents never want to give that message.

I was probably wrong to talk about what I would do in terms of rewards and punishment because that's not how I see it at all. It's treating each other with respect just because that's what you do, not for any material gain. And if my kids treat me or others badly, I'll switch off and walk away. That's what I tell them they should do if anyone treats them badly.

Out of interest, what do you do? Do you like to try a rational talk-through approach to all these sort of behaviour things?

Ghosty, what would happen if you scrapped all the rewards?

Ghosty, you haven't screwed up, truly! This is just a blip, that's all. From your description of your trip, it does seem as though you may have an Alpha Male situation there. And the rebuffal when you said goodnight to ds sounds rather like manly pride or embarrassment, to me. Maybe try praising him when he least expects, rather than bedtime - kind of raising it coversationally when you're shopping/driving the car/doing something with dd for eg.

Spells of changed circumstances can be very hard on both parents and dc's. Reunions may not live up to expectations and all parties feel disappointed and somehow cheated. When dh came home from spells away I sometimes felt we were all circling round each other a bit like some birds do in their mating ritual! I think it's important that parents do a kind of overview of what's been happening while you've been apart and that you're still singing from the songsheet. It's very easy, when you're apart, to subtly change the way you deal with children but the absentee parent of course has no idea of what's been going on so needs a while to adjust to any new regime and pick up the threads of the story.

As I said, it was my ds1 who had the Alpha Male issues but, honestly, we did get through it and I think we have a very close relationship now, even with him living thousands of miles away. So don't lose heart!

PS I smiled wryly smile at your Glare and the Eyebrow not working - it was ever thus with children, I'm sure!

The playstation thing - well if you can threaten to take it away- he can ask for more. It's called negotiation. You didn't specifically ask him to help you at the airport and maybe you could have surprised him with an extra 10 minutes at the time.

The problem seems to be his asking for it. if you give it away when you catch him being nice, but never give when he asks then that would be a better situation maybe.

Oh, you are all so right ....

Hooleymama ... that link made me LOL ... absolutely excellent ... I think I will have to print off the article

Becaroo, thanks for your thoughts ... ... the problem is is that when DS was 3.5 rewards worked a treat and I thought I was on a winner ... but now DS is almost 7 he is too clever for the reward system, and like I said in my OP - he is becoming a 'What's in it for me?' and 'Yeah, so what you gonna do about it?' type monster .... 6 going on 15 really ..... I really feel the reward system has backfired BIG TIME ...
DD is 2.8 and I won't be doing any sticker charts any time soon with her. Time out works well with her for discipline .... but I also think that instintively I have moved towards the ignore the bad and praise the good type way with her - and so far it works.
Pointy - I am very tempted to scrap the rewards system with DS .... but I will have to explain it to him, we will have to have a sit down chat and work it out .... he already understands that being good doesn't always mean he gets a reward.
It is kind of like some adults .... I know a couple of people who help out their friends and family with kids/childcare etc but always with a mental tally sheet (I looked after your DCs last week so that means it is your turn to watch mine this week sort of thing) ... I personally am of the 'Swings and Roundabouts' philosophy and I help people because they need the help - not because it means I will get the favour returned to me on a given date. For example: My friend had to rush back to the UK as her father was ill, leaving her (very capable) husband with the kids here in NZ. She was away for 3 weeks, he had to work - so there was a bit of a problem with childcare .... he owns a kindergarten so he could take his 3 year old in with him but it meant she was missing out on her swimming lessons etc .... I offered to have her for the days that she had swimming and jumping beans so that she could still have them. I did it because I wanted to, they are my friends, her DD is my DDs friend, they needed a hand, NOT because I was thinking "Oooooh, I will ask them to have my kids for a couple of days next month, seeing as I have done this for them!"
They have of course thanked me profusely and had us over for Sunday lunch when my friend came back from the UK .... which was nice, made me feel appreciated etc - but I DIDN'T expect them to do that ...
So, sorry for ramble, in this whole rewards thing .... do we risk our children growing up without a sense of community spirit (I want to help because I can and it is needed) and with this grasping "I'll help but I expect payment" attitude ... what will they be like as adults?

I want my DS to be a community spirited person ... who is helpful, kind, considerate etc because he can be .... because it is a human trait (if you are religious you could say it is a 'christian' trait - but I am not so I don't) ...

Sorry ... waffle waffle waffle - feel free to ignore ....

Suedonim ... it is such a relief to speak to someone who has experience of this enforced temporary separation thing ... your words, "Reunions may not live up to expectations and all parties feel disappointed and somehow cheated." Are soooooooo true.
My mother has said that the Alpha Male thing was an issue with my brother and my dad when we were kids .... and then in turn, when my eldest brother went to Uni it happened with my other brother and him .....

ghosty, I think the solution has become clear, hasn't it - bin the rewards system! He's not saying these things about "What do I get then?" because he has a bad attitude, simply because he has been well trained to think that way over many years!

I do think that reward systems can easily be over-used; I'm sure they are useful for some toddlers/pre-schoolers but as you say your ds is too clever now - he's outgrown them and his comments are clearly showing you this.

I think [putting tin helmet and flack jacket on emoticon] that sometimes reward systems can be a bit of a short cut when dealing with a child who doesn't want to do a, b or c; you don't have to think, just trot out the pre-rehearsed reward thing and it works - great; until you get to your situation!

You've already explained to your ds really sensitively about why people do nice things for no immediate reward - time to put this into practice and cut them out; easier now than when he's older....

He can still GET rewards, little pressies but at your discretion and when you feel like it and NOT related to his behaviour - just because he is who he is and you love him!

If behaviour is bad then yes I think withdrawal of stuff is the way to go, but on the positive reinforcement side I think you and your dh need to be very loving, kindly and benevolent to him as much as poss, so when he feels your disappointment or anger, it will mean more.

Sorry for ramble...but I think you sound so sensitive, and your ds so bright that it's a shame to be in this situation! good luck!

Don't worry about ds too much, Ghosty, even though he's having a few strops atm. Even saints had their off-days, I'd bet! I think the very fact you have such a gracious attitude to others will rub off off on him even if you can't see the evidence at the moment. I'm constantly astonished at what comes back to me from my own off-spring. Although this is just a practical example, I was astounded at dd1 recently. She's 19 and at uni. She told me that she'd been to some of the boys flats to show them how to cook/eat healthily and I made a comment about the halt leading the lame as she'd been fond of junk herself. Dd said 'Just because I wouldn't eat well at home didn't mean I wasn't watching you. I know how to provide decent stuff' And now she cooks up a storm, has a great diet and will be a better cook than me. (Not that that'll be hard!)

The separation thing is very common, lots of people whose dh's worked offshore had the same experience. It goes with the territory, unfortunately. I learned eventually to bite my tongue and count to ten when dh first came home otherwise all sorts of petty things got blown up out of proportion. After 48hrs we were usually back to normal, thank goodness.

What did your mum do about the Alpha Male thing, can she remember? She might be able to help you there. My main strategy was for dh and I to lie low and not take the bait and ds soon got bored with no reaction. Funnily enough, of my two boys, I was much more bonded with ds2. From the instant of his birth it was as though we lived, breathed and thought as one and had very few fallouts. But now an adult, he is much more the harder one to get on with; he's quite a prickly character at times and loves to play mind games - that's probably why he's a psychologist, lol! So what you see in a child isn't necessarily how it will always be.

BTW I am totally with you about the tally sheet mentality, I have never understood that totting up the favours stuff. I do things because I want to, not because I expect to gain anything from it. In the same way, I loathe dining out with people who itemise exactly what they ate, down to the last prawn or sugarcube, and won't pay a penny more. Life's too short, imo.

Ghosty, I would agree with suedonim...all children have bad patches and behave badly (like us I guess). Perhaps (dont hate me! )you expect too much from a 7 year old? Are the problems you are having now - and I dont mean to trivialise them in any way - going to be the same ones you are having this time next year? My son seems to have been "going through a phase" since he was 4 days old! Every time I seem to have jumped one hurdle...oh bugger here comes another. The reward system works for our family now...but what about in 2 years time? Who knows? You sound like you are doing a great job of instilling respect for others and teaching him the rudiments of good citizenship...as parents what more can we do? And if it is with the help of rewards, charts, naughty step...whatever...dont beat yourself up. This too shall pass.

I must say that I use rewards for outsanding behaviour, thank my DD when she has been good like picked up toys etc, and when naughty give her two warning before taking away a book or toy or TV time.

I think this worlk for her because she can see if she wants something really nice she has to put in the effort, but I am still pleased when she helps out and behaves well, and naughty behaviour means something is lost for the rest of that day - or night.

Ghosty I don't mean in anyway to turn this into a smacking debate, but if I were in your shoes and my child ever spoke to me like that they would get a smack.
I really hope you find a solution, but it sounds to me like you need to get alot tougher with him. You say your Dh was bereft of speach, what could he do???? Sorry Ghosty sometimes talking JUST DOES NOT WORK. Your son knows that nothing bad enough is going to happen, he has no incentive to change his behaviour. I would smack him, without a shadow of a doubt.
I know this is probably not helpful to you, but it makes me sad to think that you are having to put up with this behaviour

ghosty, if your ds at 7 is too clever for the rewards system, then he is way too clever to gain ANYTHING from being hit. Hitting is another short cut, the ultimate one really, saves you from having to think. Of course it produces an effect in the child because they have been forcibly reminded that the adult is bigger and stronger and can do this if they wish - but how long will it be between his current "well, where's my reward?" attitude, and "Go on then, hit me" because he knows that it won't change anything and he knows that it is in fact a LOSS of power on your part. And a 7 year old boy is in no time a ten, elven year old boy who is possibly bigger and stronger than you - if your currency with him is physical chastisement, that will be his with you.

I don't for a minute think you would smack anyway, from reading your posts which are so thoughtful, and sensitive!

I disagree kittywits. Sounds more like ghosty's son is almost egging them on to hit him (or some sort of extreme punishment) and that sort of extra negative attention could backfire big time. Ignore, ignore.

It shouldn't go awol. It was a suggestion. Like any other, it has validity for me. Ghosty can say that's not what she wants to do and that's fine.
There was a poster taking part in a smacking thread a copule of months ago whose son was really pretty out of control and abusive. She had tried everything to try and calm things down, all the good cop, bad cop routines. nothing worked and she was at the end of her teather. Then she decided she'd had enough and she smacked him. It worked for her family and she said they are now much happier, all of them .
I put it forward as a suggestion because I consider it ok. and it is ok. for alot of people.
I don't think it is ok that ghosty and her Dh have to be ruled by a 7 year old boy so I am suggesting what I would do.
She can take it or leave it, that's what most people do when offered advice that they ask for.

aviatrix, I know these threads can get really nasty and I certainly don't want to go there .
I am not a big reward fan. There are certain behaviours that children should do like tidying up after themselves, respecting adults doing what they asked ( at a certain age, certainly by 7) because it's polite and they should simply do it. It's not good that some children expect to be rewarded for doing the most mundane tasks. When my Dp had a few employees( in the building trade) one of them became very lazy and kept wanting financial incentives simply to work on the next job. I wanted to say to him " Finacial incentives, how about keeping your job, is that enough of an incentive for you?!"
I occasionally do small rewards if one of my younger children is struggling with something personal to them e.g staying dry, or not doing whingey crying all the time, trying really hard to improve at something. Rewards only work if they are used sparingly. Smacking only works if used sparingly. Going ott with anything won't get results IMO.
I hope ghosty finds a solution.

I agree with that kama. I think it is so completely unacceptable that Ghosty's son shows such disrespect to his parents. Unless you are a s**t head who abuses your kids then they should show you basic respect. If they don't it is you as the adult who have taught them that they don't have to do that and it is really, really asking for trouble.

Gosh, I missed the recent developments on this thread .... .... not been logged on much today.
Sunnysideup - thanks for you thoughts .... I agree with you and I had, I think, after reading the fab replies on this thread and thinking hard, decided to bin the rewards in the way I have done them up until now. I have been chatting to DS about this (not in a 'let's sit down and discuss this kind of way' but in a more casual way, when we are driving or doing stuff) and I think he sees my point. Your post to me is so lovely and I really agree with what you say ... rewards now and again for just being him and removal of privileges ... also the thing about being loving .... and only cross when it matters rather than growling at him pretty constantly .... yes, have taken that on board ...
In fact today he wanted to go next door after school. I told him he had to eat some afternoon tea, get changed and do all his homework before he could go .... (this should take tops half an hour). After 15 minutes of annoying his sister (which I IGNORED - YAY!) I said to him, "Look, it makes no difference to me if you go to Simon's or not ... but if you want to go at all you had better do the things I asked you to do by 4 o clock." He gave a few groans and buts, so I repeated it, shrugged and turned away to get on with what I was doing, saying it was up to him. He ate his apple, got changed and did his spellings in double quick time and was out the door with a cheery "See ya Mum" before I could blink (well, almost ) ... it was FANTASTIC ... and I was thinking of you lot the whole time - and felt so much better not standing over him promising vouchers and nagging.
Ok, so he got a reward - going to Simon's house, but it wasn't a 'material' reward IYSWIM? It was the way I did it - not the reward ....

I will come back to the other later posts ....

That's great ghosty. When I mentioned smacking for me it is always the last chance saloon option, when all else has failed. I'm so glad you've managed to start sorting things out.

ghosty, is he having problems elsewhere? He might be having problems with friendships and taking it out on you.

The fact that he is hitting out raises alarm bells for me as he sounds like he isnt in control of his emotions.

Have you tried that whole softly softly approach? Am not suggesting reqarding bad behaviour but just wondering if there is something causing it.

HOw old is he btw?

Damn it's hard isn't it? I think, and I'm really hesitant to say this, that you might have to go 'cold turkey' on the Playstation. Either by withdrawing it altogether or allowing DS a set amount of time to use it every day, come what may. Whether you allow DS more playstation time or deprive him of playstation time, it's all the same: an external motivator that reduces, in his mind, everything he does - the good stuff, the bad stuff, the extreme behaviour, the mild behaviour - into 'Playstation Minutes'. Somehow (and this is very, very tricky) you have to find your way back to a place where he is experiencing internal motivation rather than the external motivation of Playstation Minutes. For example, he helps you on your journey home not because he'll get more Playstation Minutes, not even because it makes you proud, but because it makes him feel good as he feels for himself that he can help adults, because he can see how it impacts on people for whom he cares (even if he won't hug them!). He puts his socks on because the alternative is to go without them and his feet are cold or his friends laugh at him.

I realise that this is incredibly hard to do. I know that dozens of books have been recommended on this thread and that you quite reasonably don't 'do' parenting books, but Unconditional Parenting/Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn is less of a 'how to' parenting book and more of a philosophical treatise on the pitfalls of a punishment/reward system. It doesn't give you much in the way of practical guidance about parenting without them, but it's helpful with the 'big picture'. Alternatively the Adele Faber book 'How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...' is a very practical 'how to' book but also eschews punishments/rewards.

And thinking about your original post:

"The other day (the same day we had this chat about real life) DH said, "I don't want to come home tonight and find out that you have been difficult for mum all day, like yesterday" ... I don't know if that was the right thing to say but I was shocked when DS said, "And if I am naughty what will you do?" DH was bereft of speech because what can he do? Bugger all really .... "

I think the first thing that DH might have said is that he would give you (Ghosty) a big hug because you must be tired and miserable after such a hard day. The second thing he might have said is 'What do you [DS] think I should do?' and maybe just see where the conversation went from there.

By the way, my qualifications for writing this post are zero and if you'd had a webcam this weekend at the IssymumHouse you would have witnessed me screaming 'Just get out of the bloody bath right now!' Alfie Kohn eat your heart out! But this weekend we also finally got DD (5 not 7) to stop calling DH back after he'd put her to bed. We'd tried everything including shouting but what worked was to get DD to understand that it is incredibly hard and painful for DH, who has MS, to get up our stairs and to cry out for him to come back when she didn't really need to was very hard on him. That seems to have worked.

Sorry to hear you're going through this ghosty. I'm sure someone has suggested this but is some of it related to your imminent move do you think?

I do think that a lot of it is personality related. I am one of 4 and I was absolutely vile as a child, mum treated us all the same and my second brother was brilliant but he's much more laid back than me even now. Rather than rewards can you just try taking things away. Would he respond better if he realised he was going to penalised for things?

Think smacking him would be a disasterous idea - particularly at this age.