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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

964 replies

BertieBotts · 31/08/2014 09:56

Terrible title sorry Grin Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework Wink (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Letsgoforawalk · 17/09/2014 22:46

mandbaby I wish I could help. Lots of us have been angry angry angry and know how you felt today. I hope that you and your DS have made your peace at bedtime and that you are having some help with them from your DH. Tomorrow can and will be better. Brew

Letsgoforawalk · 17/09/2014 23:31

An alternative tactic if you are asking/telling your children to do something and they are not listening.....
Speak instead about what needs to happen "you are going to play with your friends at school today, what do you need to do to get ready for that?"
This gives them the opportunity to think for themselves and feel clever. You can invite them to be part of a team that is solving a problem. Instead of "clear away the plates", you talk about what lovely ice cream you've got in the freezer, and how just as soon as the dirty dinner plates are in the sink / dishwasher we will all be able to have some. They can fill in the gaps and know that means clearing the plates. So everyone must help.
I dig my heels in if people give me direct 'do this' type directions. I'm probably not the only one....
A thing I remembered this morning was a communication theory I read about many moons ago. The book I think was called "I'm OK you're OK" and the premise was really simple. It split communication styles into Parent, adult, child. Without going into massive convoluted detail about the theory, if you address someone adult to adult and they respond as though they are addressing you as a child, it causes "dissonance" and conflict. Sometimes our children appreciate a more 'adult' approach. Older siblings in particular might enjoy the chance to develop their sense of themselves as mature thinkers.
If all else fails bribe them Wink

Letsgoforawalk · 17/09/2014 23:40

rhetorician identifying resilience in your daughter is a great positive. Smile
And yes I think a lot of us can use skills at work that we struggle to use at home. Blush

rhetorician · 18/09/2014 09:48

my dd is really quite odd in many ways - but I am delighted with her because she wrote a story yesterday with her childminder and obviously worked really hard at it. Her writing is a bit rubbish really - in general her schoolwork doesn't match her intelligence as I see it (she told me a brilliant story last night about a squirrel who kept getting thinner and thinner and a hummingbird who got fatter and fatter). And she has an odd quirk - she laughs when people hurt themselves or are upset...

ViciousCircle80 · 18/09/2014 11:54

Hi all, this is a good thread.
I've just recovered from bursting into tears of exasperation in the street because my 3 yr old ran away from me for the umpteenth time this week and ran up and down a muddy hill in her nursery uniform refusing to come home. Then she refuses to hold my hand and stop/starts or runs away down a random street/into a road. I shouted at her again and slapped her leg but she just laughs.
I think really if I just stood around and waited for her to play or explore or whatever everything would be fine, but it makes every journey 10 times longer and sometimes I just can't be bothered with this. And actually, I think at the back of my mind I feel I look like a failing parent if people see me just standing there while she "runs rings round me"...
I agree with the phone down thing. It seems to seep the life out of you if you pick it up and scroll too much.

Letsgoforawalk · 18/09/2014 12:44

rhetorician I've two "odd, quirky" DDs and a third, younger one that is extremely sociable and socially aware in a way that her sisters simply are not. I recognise a lot of what you have said about your DD. It's character, if you keep up with the self esteem support I'm sure all will be well. You also need to be prepared for the fact that children develop emotionally and socially at their own pace, in the same way that some children walk at 12 months, others not til they have had their second birthday. My eldest was much happier at a bigger school as she met some fellow oddballs to hang around with. With time your DD will find a way to express that intelligence in writing. Let it flow and enjoy those stories. Does she play any instrument? I know she's quite young for that yet. That can bring lots of advantages if you find an instrument that suits her.

Welcome vicious circle it is a difficult stage once they are out of a pushchair! I used to love striding along with the double buggy getting places at my speed. Then once they are walking you feel like you are going backwards some days! Are there spots on the route where she can walk along a wall or have a play in a park? So that she knows that if she holds your hand and walks when you require it, there will be a 'play time' at certain places?

rhetorician · 18/09/2014 13:52

letsgo she is about to start pre-instrumental music classes, and is going to zumba jr after school, which I think she will love - she likes physical sensation, always trying to do headstands etc, even though she isn't the most co-ordinated of people! DD2 is social queen bee - utterly adept at chatting to people, big on empathy etc. It's hard to know even at this age whether DD1 is just a slow developer in these ways, or whether there is something else. But we seem to be winning the dressing battle at least!

BertieBotts · 18/09/2014 14:36

This came up on my facebook through Andrea Nair who I find quite good to follow on facebook.

What to do when you have fallen out of like with your child

The looking for positive parts of your relationship is definitely helping. But I find it more difficult/a constant struggle to follow points 1, 4, 5 and 6. 7 annoys me because I am fed up of this sanctimonious parenting advice which seems to think that every reader of their blog/book/website etc has been using very authoritarian discipline and now they have "seen the light" there is a magical shift. That's not my situation, I've always wanted to and aimed to do it in the way they talk about but I just fail at it a lot. And frankly, there's probably a limit to the amount of times you can tell your child "I'm sorry, I'm going to try and change" before they stop believing you and/or lose all respect for you entirely.

Sorry totally lacking in energy to respond but I'll be back later, wanted to share this one before I forgot.

OP posts:
ViciousCircle80 · 18/09/2014 14:44

Thanks Letsgo. She just doesn't seem to care about consequences when it comes to that lately, will just run off and ignore me or shout GET OFF ME when I try to coax her along. That's because ive just started firmly telling her to get off me at home, she climbs around on me and it hurts as she's a big 3 yr old.
It just gets me down. Won't so much as hold my hand outside but literally climbing on my head at home.
I snapped about an hour ago and chucked her in her bed as she is shattered but refuses to settle, just whinging and whining, all that did was make her scream the house down for me.
Today is a very crap day! I'm not eating or sleeping well either so im keep crying etc, absolute mess.
I hope one day we can be best friends without all the drama

ViciousCircle80 · 18/09/2014 14:50

Just been reading through others posts. Is anyone a fan of the Supernanny routines? Naughty step etc. I have to say I've never been keen but can't really put my finger on why. A bit regimented? Perhaps that's the wrong word.

Hebburnisaplaceonearth · 18/09/2014 15:59

Hi, sorry this is not in response to anything else, but a question has popped up and I really want to know how others feel. Are you sensitive to what others say about your child's behaviour? The TA made a comment about my ds's behaviours being bossy to some others in his class and I'm really bothered by it. I suppose I'm being sensitive because I find his behaviour difficult but I want him to get on well at school desperately. I am a teacher too, so maybe that doesn't help either. Are all parents sensitive to criticism, how do I get over it? I need to get through parents evenings!!

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 18/09/2014 18:39

bertie I like that post and it's particularly apt today. DD is tired, bed late, woke early and has been really difficult all day. Shouting, screaming, pushing boundaries, irritating her brothers purposefully. We had a friend round this afternoon- poor sharing, more shouting, snatching. It was hard.
I'm tired. After her friend left I announced "DD your behaviour has been just terrible today" preceded of course by The Sigh. Upset her. FFS

Yesterday the dts really kicked DD hard. Both of them, repetitively. She was sobbing, needed an ice pack to one elbow. They thought it was funny. I was gutted, nearly in tears. I see that as an epic parenting fail they'd do that. They're nearly 2.5 for heavens sake! I spoke to them all about kicking, how it hurts, how it makes you feel. DT2 listened, DT1 barely noticed and giggled and messed about. I basically ended up wanting to shake him but just walked away. Tried later, to not much more avail.

So I am yet again feeling a bit low.

Plus hugely stressed about school applications (I know, I know). We live in a village with one school of an intake of 35. Its a big birth rate year and I hear there's 38/39 expected to apply so I reckon at least an extra 2 in on appeal. Or try applying elsewhere. All smaller village schools with mixed year teaching so every other year all 3 of my children will be in the same class- intake of 15 and 14 respectively. Not sure that'll be great for them, especiallly the dts in terms of developing their own friends. If there were 7 boys, thats 5 they may be friends with- not a lot of scope for separate friendship groups. Anyway, we visited a school today. it didnt go brilliantly. DC bored and played up +++

Anyway, I'll be back. must get tired dc bathed now.

oh but viciouscircle i think most of us don't like supernanny stuff as its so authoritative (as oppposed to authoritarian). Will expand later.

BertieBotts · 18/09/2014 18:57

Vicious no I really don't like Supernanny (although this thread is supposed to be parenting philosophy open so if anybody does like supernanny and wants to use that kind of thing then please don't feel it's "not allowed"!)

I agree that it's too regimented. It's also very behaviourist - see the behaviour, react in a positive or negative way. That's it. My feeling on this is, OK, that does work very quickly and achieves results in a dramatic way on a TV programme. It works very well for small children who tend to see things as quite black and white. But, it's only addressing the surface behaviour - not the underlying cause. Which means that whatever is causing that behaviour doesn't always go away by itself and will probably come out in another way, either another negative behaviour, an emotional issue like over/under eating or bedwetting, being expressed at school rather than at home, or the most dangerous and the hardest to see - the child turns the negativity inwards and develops a bad self image. I think that Supernanny does try to address this a bit in the programme by making sure the family spend time together etc but I feel like it's a bit using a sledgehammer to crack a nut and then sticking the nut back together and that makes it OK.

I also feel like it works well on under 10s but for older children I can't see it working the same. I made a point earlier about dog training vs child discipline and that for young children, training them to react to your approval works, but only for as long as they actually want your approval. For children they instinctively do - their "stone age" processing tells them subconsciously, if they don't please mum + dad, they might get kicked out of the tribe and die. For teenagers, this isn't the case. Their processing actually makes them kick off against the authority of mum and dad, just like every animal, they're getting ready to fly the nest and be independent. If they got kicked out of the "tribe" they could probably fend for themselves. So I think that for teenagers you need a much more open environment with mutual trust and respect, and you can't suddenly start to develop this when they turn 13, it has to already be there. So that to me means not using a very authoritative model of discipline where immediate, unquestioning obedience is the expectation.

Then the last point is that it's very one size fits all. I don't think that works in real life. Sometimes you need to punish behaviour but sometimes the lesson is better learnt without punishment. Sometimes a heart to heart helps and sometimes it doesn't. You can use consequences without it being the tough supernanny approach, and you can use lots of other tools as well.

Hebburn Hi, welcome :) The criticism thing isn't ringing bells for me so I'll let someone else answer! If something comes to mind later I'll pop back.

rhetoric A lot of us have had niggling "Is my child really neurotypical or is there something else going on there?" thoughts. I've come to the conclusion that it probably doesn't matter too much as long as we are respectful about the person that they are and trying to respond to their unique nature. Again the importance of not using a one size fits all approach! I think this is probably the only instance where a diagnosis for something would be useful (unless of course there is medication or similar which can help) - because sometimes institutions like schools use a one size fits all approach and it can be helpful to have a flag to wave to say "This approach won't work here!" Shame that it has to be that way. It would be nice if schools could take an individual approach without needing labels to do so.

Oh - and the laughing thing is actually quite normal, it's a stress/anxiety response. It doesn't always mean amusement. It can mean that somebody feels acutely uncomfortable in a situation. I do this and it's really embarrassing but I can't control it! I have a particular sad thought that I think if I feel like I'm laughing and know it's inappropriate but that doesn't always stop it in time Blush

mandbaby Stop being so hard on yourself. You are totally in "free pass to losing it" territory this close to the end of pregnancy! It's not a normal situation and you shouldn't feel like you ought to be reacting as though it is one. Every day is a new day.

MoreSnow I'm sure every newborn has been dropped at some point! DS launched himself off the sofa into a glass and metal table at 4 months old! Hope he's OK.

I think non eye contact is quite normal... isn't it? It's horrible to look somebody in the eye! I hate it, it makes me feel so uncomfortable. It's especially bad when you know you've done something wrong or you're in trouble. I wouldn't get stressed about it. Maybe take it as a sign of guilt and remorse? :)

OP posts:
Biffabin · 18/09/2014 19:00

Thanks for the welcome everyone. The past few days have been slightly better wrt the dc getting ready in the mornings and getting to bed etc but we've still had a few moments.

No time to post more just yet but will be back soon.

BertieBotts · 18/09/2014 19:00

Dreaming what would you say is the difference between the two words? I'm struggling to articulate.

I know that some sites say parenting is a spectrum between authoritarian and permissive, being too far at either end is harmful for different reasons but you want to be somewhere in the middle, so they trust and respect what you say but you're not being all harsh and scary either.

OP posts:
Letsgoforawalk · 18/09/2014 19:16

Bugger. Had a massive post, went off to find the AHA site link for vicious and lost the lot. Came back to find six people had posted in the meantime!

Letsgoforawalk · 18/09/2014 19:27

Bertie, I was saying much of what you've just said so I won't start again!
Authoritarian - you will do as I say because I am The Boss and you are an underling
Authoritative - I'm the mummy. I care about you. I will listen and be interested in your opinion. However, I make the big decisions and to keep you safe and the family unit functioning I need you to listen too.

I think. That's me not a dictionary. Will post check and revise if I'm. Completely wrong

Letsgoforawalk · 18/09/2014 19:31

Good definition of the two here
www.towson.edu/ows/authoritarian.htm

Hebburnisaplaceonearth · 18/09/2014 19:42

That explanation is good letsgo.
I sometimes find myself saying 'why don't you do as you are told?' And then realise unquestioning obedience isn't what I actually want.

rhetorician · 18/09/2014 20:29

hebburn hello! I think I am quite sensitive to what other people say about DD1, mainly because it reignites my own concerns and anxieties about her. And other people don't see how much parenting effort it takes/has taken to get her to being moderately civilised in public reasonably well behaved. bertiebotts - yes, I did read somewhere that laughing is the start of empathy, but social encounters clearly do make her quite anxious/stressed (she used to squawk at the kids on our road when a bit smaller because she just didn't know how to interact with them). [

rhetorician · 18/09/2014 20:32

oh and I used HTT technique today - the describe thing in relation to enlisting cooperation - said to DD not "pick that cup up", but "oh there's a cup on the floor". And sure enough she picked it up and put it on the table, saying, mind you, "there was nothing in it", as if this makes the cup's location on the floor perfectly ok (logically, I suppose that's true). She is a messy bugger (and I mean that in a loving way)

MoreSnowPlease · 18/09/2014 20:33

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

AnotherMonkey · 18/09/2014 20:43

Loads of stuff to think about and read today!

Over the last 6 months, I've become a lot clearer in my own mind about where I fall on the authoritative/permissive scale. I did tend to swing wildly between the two for a while.

Hebburn the criticism issue for me depends entirely on who it's coming from and the context. DS's school tend to be pretty brilliant actually, they see the madness but they also see the good stuff. So from them, I generally have no issue. However... judgement from the ILs (that's another thread right there) really pisses me off.

Bertie I completely agree with the neurotypical paragraph. The conclusion I've reached is that DS may have no diagnosable condition but be emotionally sensitive and decidedly quirky. Alternatively, we may have a mild diagnosis to come. Either way, he is who he is and he's fab in so many ways. I'm learning every day how to better manage the quirks and to recognise the many positives and as he grows up, it's getting easier to reason with him.

Moresnow my friends are brilliant parents but there isn't one of us who doesn't have a similar story! It's HORRIBLE at the time but it's pretty standard!

Hi viciouscircle, Wine for you.

DD is absolutely batshit mental at the moment. Oh my word. She has an opinion on EV-ER-Y-THING. Everything. 90% of it involves screaming, shouting or stamping. And she reserves the right to change that opinion immediately if no screaming opportunity was apparent. "I DO IT", "no, YOU stop it", "NO" and "NOT THAT ONE" are current phrases of choice. From the second she wakes up it's insane.

Positives: she is bright as a button and very, very funny when not screaming the house down.

The most useful thing I've taken from that 'How To Be A Better Parent' book so far is the distinction between teaching and training, and how to apply the two. This has solved some ongoing issues for us, most impressively the Car Seat Saga. This had reached the point at which it could take 30 minutes of pissing around, screaming and a full body wrestle to get anywhere, so something had to be done.

Teaching: first I explained calmly and seriously to DD that when we get into the car, we climb straight into our car seat and an adult will fasten the straps.

Training: I let her try. She climbs into the front seat. I take her out, explain again, we have an 'action replay'. She climbs into the middle of the backseat and looks at me. I tap the car seat. She shouts "STOP IT". I take her out. And so on. It took four attempts the first time, which was still notably better than before. It got down to two attempts. Then we had four attempts and a full body wrestle a couple of days later. Today, we've been in and out of the car 3 times and she has just climbed in EVERY time. Amazing.

BlueEyeshadow · 18/09/2014 21:17

Hi All, was on the last thread for a while but dropped off before the summer. I have 2 DSs aged 7 and just turned 5.

I've just read the book Calm Parents Happy Kids by the woman who writes the AHA parenting site. It really resonated with me and I'm trying to put it into practice, but struggling with the reality. Am also trying to get DH on board, who is rather dismissive. DS1 in particular fits the description of a spirited child which is really challenging.

I have a tendency to be impatient and short-tempered, and have just done a short mental wellbeing course aimed at anger management - the woman thinks I should do a self-esteem course, which is coming up soon. Will see. That certainly ties in with what the Calm Parents book says about parenting being a choice of fear and love - I seem to lash out out of fear of what other people will think, or fear that I'm a bad parent as well as fear of the boys hurting each other or getting into trouble.

Was also just reading the thread about adult tantrums in Chat and thinking, yeah, that's me on a regular basis. Blush Sad Determined to get to grips with this and learn to regulate my own emotions better so I can help the boys with theirs.

BlueEyeshadow · 18/09/2014 21:31

Got massively sidetracked in the middle of typing that so ended up just posting me me me and not talking to anyone else, sorry!

rheotician - that "there's a cup on the floor thing" totally doesn't work in this house. Both boys would think "yes, and...?" - they are very literally-minded and completely immune to subtext!

mandbaby - that sounds like me and DS1 so often. He won't look me in the eye either and I feel threatened by that.

Hebburn - yes, I sometimes say "why can't you just believe what you're told?" when I actually want them to be critical thinkers!