Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

Welcome HJBeans - not sure I've got any knowledge but I can at least sympathise!!!

Got considerably more sleep last night and so, unsurprisingly, today did go a lot better. Really good point and so true MoreSnow - I do manage to keep calmer in public. But why? I hate it that I can't keep it together when unviewed... Surely I should care more about how I treat DS rather than what random people think of me? Though I suppose the in-public thing is tied in with a fear that someone would call SS!!!!! :/

Hope everyone is doing ok and that you're about to have a good night's rest. AnotherMonkey have you had your meetings? Hope they went ok.

Thanks for the hellos. letsgo : I love that a "day off" now means cooking and housework. Same here and it really does feel like a rest!

I, too, seek external witnesses when I feel myself out of patience and shouty. Works a treat but does raise worrying thoughts about why I find it so much easier to vent rage when unobserved. I'm essentially never short-tempered with anyone else and have a very high threshold for getting angry. Have never felt such regular anger before - that it's diffused by being observed is probably very telling.

Oh, why didn't I think to post this before? There is a "childline for parents", it used to be called Parentline, now it's called Family Lives: 0808 800 2222. In the UK, obv. There's one for Ireland too.

And cry-sis for parents of small babies who are crying a lot or not sleeping and you feel you can't cope: 08451 228 669

We're on the last page, so time to decamp to Thread 3 if anyone wants to start it/suggest a name. (I can't believe we've filled up 2 whole threads!)

Will be back probably with constructive stuff later, I hope :)

Oh oops, I forgot to click over to the last page and missed the last 3 posts. HJB: Some people find it helpful to pretend there is a film crew or hidden camera recording them as it helps them keep their emotions and temper in check. It doesn't work for me because I just think "But there isn't" but I know lots of people find it helpful.

Another thing is to try and train yourself to see the children as an audience. Remembering that every time they see you lose it they are learning what a person should do when they feel angry. For that reason, it doesn't mean that you should never ever lose it - it's unnatural. But it's the way you handle yourself during and after an outburst which is important to them.

I can really relate, though - I am not an angry or aggressive person and the only person I've ever felt the same way towards is my sister, when we were a child, the normal sibling fighting stuff. It's that same rage. I used to work in a shop where the customers could get quite aggressive, and I was a master of patience with them, but faced with a three year old? Hahahahaha. No. I did not keep my cool at all. (Someone explain the psychology of this to me, because I am absolutely dying to know why this kind of thing happens.)

My arm-chair psychology explanation is simply that we're by far the most powerful force in their lives so all the things that kick in subconsciously to keep us relatively submissive with other people don't with them. It's an awful thought, but I think I get angry with him because I can. Put us in front of society and the subconscious breaks go on again. It's not just that I feel I can't react if someone's watching, I genuinely feel much less angry when we're out of the house.

They also make a trillion times more demands on us than anybody else can simply by existing. I'm biologically programmed to be thinking of him and his welfare essentially all the time. I'm massively vulnerable through the strength of my attachment to him. And he can be hugely frustrating, especially if I'm exhausted and sleep-deprived. Maybe some part of it is just the pre-parent me screaming "I used to be important in my own right and have time for myself! What more do you want?"

Don't mean to paint myself as a constant screamer. I'm pretty good at keeping it under control with just the thoughts that a) he's too small to be doing anything to me on purpose and b) I don't want him to learn that being aggressive and angry is a functional response to frustration.

But, oh, do I battle the red mist on bad days! I've really never felt anything like it. I guess I'm hoping to learn some strategies to diffuse things both by redirecting his behaviour and gaining some sort of zen-like perspective for myself.

Hmm that's interesting. Like that study on American prison guards which showed they were far more brutal when given powers to be so.

I think perhaps with others, it's that I know if I can't make them do something, it either doesn't matter (because they are an adult responsible for themselves) or that someone else will step in (whether it's my manager, the police, etc) but there are situations with DS where I suddenly realise that I can't make him do something, and I need to, and then the panic comes in which makes me react in an unhelpful way. I don't know what other, less panicky or shouty parents do. Maybe they are better at getting their children to co-operate in the first place!

I do shout much less now he is older, because he just doesn't do as many infuriating things and we have discovered strategies which work.

Hello,

I've been reading but struggled to post. I have DT2 with croup, DT1 with a chest infection and even DD has the cough and snottiness..Been a loong and trying week. DT1, whose behaviour we struggle with most of a daily basis, is so awful my husband was shouting at him and I yesterday "this is just not normal childhood development!" He can scream for so long.

I've lost my temper and shouted multiple times. DD told the preschool lady mummy has a loud voice and shouts. Even though it's not all the time it's clearly way, way too often and I'm feeling deeply ashamed and overwhelmed that I seem unable to change these behaviours in myself. If I can make myself pause it's ok and I can regain control but too often I don't. Ridiculous.

anothermonkey I and DT1 are different in public and so people really don't get it when I say how hard I find him. I can really empathise with no one doing any more than simply reassuring you. Can I ask whether he struggles in any other areas than socially/emotionally?
oh shite, he's awake, gor to.go

I really needyo get back on the thread. My nearly 3 year old twins have turned into absolute monsters and I am really struggling. Feeling a lot like Jeckyll/Hyde.
And I find myself shouting before I realise. I hate myself for it. But I've failed to stop .

Will be bavk tomorrow. But just wanted to
Mark
My place again.

Are we starting another Thread anyone?!!

A few posts to go but need to get the title right.
How about including something about a village (as in, it takes a village to raise a child. ) but sticking with monkey's original theme.
Come and be a better parent with us in the virtual village.....
Better suggestions most welcome
I think including recommended reading in the OP is a good idea. Then people won't be too shocked when homework appears

Oh yes, that's a great one :)

Just copy and paste the list and add any others which people have found helpful. Maybe add Andrea Nair's facebook page, that's a good one to follow. She's less judgemental and perfect than Aha Parenting.

I don't mind starting it but anybody else is free to. When it's up, though, I'm going to start posting weekly challenges

Hi all, I joined in the hope of becoming a better parent but struggling to find the time to read or post. DS still has reflux and cries a lot. DD still making life very difficult.

Yesterday was a particularly bad day. I feel broken and too distressed to go into it. It's probably trivial but it doesn't feel that way.

But just to say I bought 'how to Speak' on someone's recommendation here (was it bextor or bertie?) I started reading and instantly felt overwhelmed by requirement to do exercises and suggestion to read it slowly! Can anyone suggest best chapter to skip to? I really don't have time at the moment and any reading I do of anything now is at the sacrifice of sleep.

Choccie, it could have been any number of people. HTT is a great place to start, don't expect too much of yourself. I never did putting notes up or 'doing exercises'
Just look at the cartoons........
That is good enough.

Hope today turned out ok after your horrible day yesterday
Claire's TC glad to see you again!
I have a friend who had a haunted look every time I saw her when her twins were that age. Challenging enough with one. How is your big girl?

Hi everyone.

Strange week here. School have concerns about DS. I want to post about it all on here soooo much but worried that it's quite identifying.

We've been doing better, funnily enough, but I'm so worried about him and still feeling a bit alienated. I find the not-knowing very tough.

Do you realise it's a year since I started the first thread? It's flown by.

So sorry not to name check, it's all a bit mad at the moment here too. Reading and thinking of you all x

Oh no, don't worry about HTT :) I think the chapter on engaging co-operation is good, but equally it's OK to just do it in order but bit by bit if that makes sense. (I skip the exercises too - I'm not at school ) I was planning to post a "weekly challenge" based on HTT if you just want to join in with that. The challenge/task is going to be something really small and minor, so don't expect to be writing essays etc. It can be quite wordy, so if you're finding it hard going just leave it for now. Yes to looking at cartoons. How old is your DD again?

In fact I'll post the "challenge" now so you can see what I'm on about.

HTT weekly challenge 1:

Listening with full attention.

We all get distracted at times, whether it's with phones, facebook, mumsnet, jobs and housework, other children, just wanting five minutes to yourself, etc etc. This week's challenge is about silencing that inner sigh at the cry of "Mummy, Mummy!" and stopping and giving your child your full attention. And I mean full attention. Turn off the phone screen, mute or pause the TV, put down whatever is in your hands. Turn towards them if you are sitting, or come down to their level if you're standing. Make eye contact and really hear what they have to say. (If you want to test yourself, write down the gist of the conversation afterwards.) If you're doing something really actually important that you can't stop, tell them just a minute, but then when you are ready, do the listening fully thing - not having half an eye on something else, facing them, eye level etc.

Easy mode: Do this once or twice during the week, even if they only say "Can I have a biscuit?" or talk about Minecraft. Well done. You win the challenge anyway!
Normal mode: See if you can learn something new about your child by doing this.
Hardcore mode: Make a point of doing the challenge when you really don't feel like doing it. When you're angry with them or socially overloaded or tired or whatever else triggers your least tolerant mood.

(I'll repost this when the new thread is started - unless you want me to start it again? - so it starts from 1 so consider this a sneak preview )

Of course all challenges, chat, etc, on this thread are totally optional - feel free to just pop in and splurge/vent or ask for advice if that's all you have time to do. Please don't feel pressured! It's just some of us are total geeks and like navel gazing. Perhaps a bit too much. :)

It's been a YEAR Monkey?? Wow.

I suppose you could start a new thread in chat/30 days or name change just for that post so it's not linked to your normal stuff but give us a sign? Or PM people. Or just accept that identifying in that way really means that if someone happens to come across this exact thread then they'd know who you are (although I'd be willing to bet whatever it is is more common than you think) but that nobody is likely to google the exact events you are writing about and hence stumble upon this thread.

Hey homework

Forgot to say, letsgo I love the thread title.

Oops bertie x post.

I know, I can't believe it, it seems like a week since I said 6 months.

I'll hopefully find a way to post the main info on here that doesn't make it blindingly obvious, if it isn't already!

I like the idea of challenges and really like the levels. My DS (18m) is only just starting to speak, but if I really listen I can pick out more 'words' and he's thrilled when I can understand what he means. It's too easy to assume all the noise is incomprehensible whining as I'm not used to him speaking, so it would be good practice to try to concentrate more on what he's 'saying'. Have been trying the get-down-to-his-level trick for a few weeks now and it does work to diffuse things sometimes. Thanks for the suggestion, Botts.

Bertie - your challenge is apt because it may have some bearing on what happened a day or so ago.

DD is 3.4 now. Since she had her screaming tantrum with DH (where she stripped off and trashed her room), we've both backed off even telling her off for anything. The truth is, I think we're scared of her reactions.

Here's what happened the other day - and I'd really appreciate tips on how to deal with this.

I picked her up from preschool, steeling myself for her usual reaction when she sees me. Sure enough, I walked in and she turned from a child that was playing happily to a surly sulky child the moment she saw me. The past few times I've picked her up nursery staff have had to help me get her ready because she refuses to put on shoes coat etc. (I am also usually struggling with ten other preschoolers crawling over DS (3mo) at the same time). On this occasion I put DS well to one side and ignored his eyes being poked at by other kids, and gave DD my full attention: dropped to one knee, arms out for big cuddle (which she had to be encouraged by staff to go in to - I could cry again now ...) then sat on the floor and asked her what she'd done during the day, major praise etc etc. Staff commented on how she apparently 'didn't want to go home', but I know it's me and my presence she's reacting to.

I usually leave preschool on the brink of tears and doing everything I can to hide it.

When we left, she ran away from me immediately and I lost visibility of her. DS was in a heavy car seat and I was struggling to run, so I was faced with leaving him on the pavement or leaving her to run ahead alone. I was yelling STOP, STOP for her to stop. I've tried to teach her to never go past the gate without me, so was praying while I tried to catch up that she'd do that, but no, she was prevented from going into the road by another parent coming towards me. I shudder to think what could have happened if he hadn't been there.

Then we had the 'time to get in your car seat' drama, by now DS is screaming his head off and DD is shouting and refusing to get in her seat. I got her in by threatening to go call one of the preschool staff members to strap her in. She yelled and screamed at me from her seat all the way home.

We got home and she headed off to play happily by herself for about an hour. But after that wore off she started crying for her daddy. Demanding I called him and told him to come home. Wouldn't accept calm explanations or limited distractions (DS in my arms). I felt myself starting to break up inside so left the room. She followed me getting louder and louder while DS was crying in my arms. I really lost it. I slammed a door hard and yelled "stop it, stop it, stop it" at the top of my voice. She is so loud, I think that's why I went for full-on noise to penetrate the sound. She stopped for a few minutes and then started again: louder and louder and louder. I felt bashed by it and horrified by my reaction so told her I wasn't going to talk to her while she shouted and screamed, and then ignored her completely. She tried to ramp it up even more.

I saw DHs car headlights coming home. She didn't notice, and I didn't tell her, hoping DH would walk in and see what was going on for himself, because I think he thinks I exaggerate. But she heard him open the door, and it was like a switch flicked. Tears and screams stopped immediately, excited, hurtled to him calling his name. Like it never happened. Complete opposite of what I get at preschool pickup.

It broke me.

I spent the rest of the evening until she went to bed listening to her babbling happily with him while they cooked dinner then ate together (DS was crying again so I ate later on my own). I was occupied with DS the whole time and I cried and cried. Couldn't stop. I've never allowed myself to cry in front of her, but couldn't control it.

After she went to bed I told DH what had happened. He told me she told him a week ago that "Mummy always shouts at me". And I broke all over again. Cried myself to sleep. Woke up at 3am and started crying again. I had to go and sit on the bathroom floor because I thought I'd wake DS. DH found me at 5am. I was still crying at 7am when DD woke up. I am still crying now every time I think of it. DH has taken time off work and doing preschool pickups. I am acutely aware of difference in relationship between DH and me. I feel my DD hates me and I can't come back from that.

Some points:

1/ I know she's only 3. This is important. My phone screensaver pic is specifically chosen when she looks her most innocent and young, to constantly remind me of this, to try head off my growing feeling that I've had for months that she hates me. But that feeling that I have lost my beautiful girl has gripped me.

2/ I asked DH how she reacts when he picks her up. She is thrilled (as are all the other kids greeting their parents).

3/ She said I shout at her. Actually, I don't. Me yelling like that the other day is unusual and very rare (I think I've done it once before). And it hurts me when I do it. I do feel acreage inside me, but I usually take deep breaths, walk away, and don't let it out. In fact, she shouts at me all the time. I've been wondering where she learned that? I don't know if she's parroting me saying to her 'don't shout at me' back to DH. Or if, as DH suggests, she's using the word 'shout' in place of 'scold' or 'Tell off ...'. I do find myself constantly saying 'Don't ......'. But it really really hurt to hear she said that.

4/ I know all this is my fault and something I've done. I've watched the TV programs. She's a blank canvas. I don't know what I've done when I seem less shouty, more reasonable etc than DH can be with her. I feel as if I am on the periphery of the family unit, but not a part of it.

Sorry this is so long. My head is a blank on how to move forward or even getting a grip of how I feel. I am a ball of hurt and pain. I dread time with her in case I get more of the same ... I have this mantra in my head : "she's only 3" to try rationalise it but it's not working. I know I should put one-to-one time into her and take the tantrums on the chin. I don't have time - I have DS who never stops crying and won't nap in his crib during the day. I have a reward chart planned, but no bloody time to make it.

First off, that kind of reaction on picking up from preschool is REALLY common, and very normal.

I know it's me and my presence she's reacting to.

No, honestly, it's not. This sounds far more like a child who struggles with transitions than some awful harridan home that she doesn't want to go to! I expect she is just as mardy when you try to get her ready to go out, too. That's just what being three is like. They live in the present and her enjoying herself now is what's forefront in her mind and she doesn't want to leave it. Conversely she will be excited for DH because it's a novelty, and he spends less time with the DC so he has more energy for "fun dad stuff".

Are they not all ready to go at pick up time? That's what DS' preschool used to do, and it worked much better. They had tidy-up time and then had to sit on the carpet for a quiet story, got their coats on and waited to be picked up. So they never expected any more fun stuff to happen after "tidy up time". The staff should be working with you, rather than standing around looking baffled. Do you have set pick up times, and do all the kids get picked up at once? Can you put DC2 into a pushchair (or better, clip the car seat onto a pushchair) and park him away from the kids, while you get DD sorted? Or would a nursery teacher enjoy a cuddle with a little baby perhaps? What do other parents with a baby do, they must have the same issue?

Low blood sugar at the end of nursery can also be a problem. Try taking a snack (you can give it in the car if you want to avoid any judginess from the staff!) - that also gives her a reason to want to leave, and a bribe for the pushchair straps. You would really be surprised by the number of parents who do this.

If she runs, put the car seat down and chase her. That should probably earn a telling off or consequence, too (I remember one nursery parent REALLY shouting at their child for running off and one of the other mums commented "Blimey, I've never heard Sarah shout before!") I always felt embarrassed about telling DS off if we were near nursery/other parents, but twice somebody stopped me and said "Good for you." Reins for the walk to the car perhaps in the short term? Again a pushchair or travel system would help here WRT DC2, although it adds time. You'd also then have a last resort option to strap her in if she won't hold hands. You can't rely on her stopping at the gate, so don't. Just eliminate the possibility.

Consider some transition time in the car - let her climb into her seat herself, have some special toy and/or snack in the car so she has something to look forward to about being in there and don't be in a rush to get her strapped in and the engine started. Is there a CD she would like to listen to in the car perhaps? Singing might help to calm DC2 down as well. It was the only thing which worked for DS when he was tiny, and it might be nice for her to think she has a special job which is cheering DC2 up because she is his favourite person.

When she is asking for something she can't have, like Dad being home, you could try validating the feeling rather than trying to fix or explain it. Just literally saying "You wish Daddy was home already" might have been enough to make her feel heard. She does know that you can't make him come home early, so you don't need to explain it, and sometimes distraction/placation feels a bit patronising (yep, even to a three year old!) Once you've validated you could suggest something like "Why don't you draw a picture for him when he gets here?" Sometimes they are just lost in a bit of a meltdown/spiral, though.

Also... although I can relate to a lot of your post, I think you might consider going and seeing your GP. This amount of crying and wanting to cry isn't normal, and you shouldn't be trying to push through or blaming yourself. I'm wondering perhaps about PND - the combination of the horrible Threenager stage (Andrea Nair keeps talking about PND peaking at three years) and the hormone crash from the birth of DC2 could have triggered something. Don't struggle on on your own! :)

Your point number 4.... is just patently wrong. Children are not a blank canvas, certainly at three they are not. She's reacting immaturely to stuff and sometimes they are just contrary, defiant, angry for seemingly no reason at all. It's really nothing that you have done. And she absolutely doesn't hate you - she ADORES you. Totally honestly. You are her absolute world. (BTW - only suggesting because it doesn't come naturally to me and I used to forget, but tell her you love her at least three times a day. At bedtime, at nursery drop off, at least one more time.) All is not lost, and she will come back to you. She might feel angry at you for some reason right now (or she might not, she might just be boundary testing.) One thing is for sure - this kind of testing, attacking behaviour shows that she feels secure in your love. It might not feel like it, but it's something to hold on to.

Do you have a sling for the baby?

Oh - reward chart. Don't make it complicated. Pasta Jar technique? Zero time required and you can start it right now. Info is on this link (it was the third google result for "pasta jar technique" and the first one not about cooking!)

www.mumsnet.com/toddlers/tantrums

That also reduces the need to tell off but means you're not just ignoring bad behaviour, either.

Perfect reward for 3 year olds is one of those comics based on some ghastly character with the horrid plastic toys stuck to the front. Fairly cheap, easily available, something to do together, and you can throw them away when they get too ragged.

Ah Choccie that sounds so hard. I'm glad Bertie has come along with wise advice.

But ((hugs)) for you, and really, it's NOT your fault.