Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

All I can say is don't worry. It's bloody annoying but not unusual behaviour.

Perhaps on this occasion there was simply no other way to handle it. Perhaps you can think of ways you could have handled that need for attention differently (I can't think of any useful suggestions).

Either way, it sounds incredibly draining and I hope you've got your feet up this evening, even if you're feeding.

I remember feeling like there was a gulf between me and DS. It was a very difficult time. It will get easier.

So - this is really not a criticism, just an observation. DH had to end the call anyway. So what he could have done was end the call and call the person back anyway. Rather than ending the call, letting everything escalate, and still have to call someone back. It was really out of proportion in the end for interrupting a phone call. (It's done. I'm not judging, have totally and utterly been there!)

Did she ever get her milk? Three year olds aren't great at understanding "I'll do it when I've...". The entire reaction could have been related to the fact she really, really wanted some milk. So the other check - check your expectations. Is it reasonable to expect a 3 year old (a) to not bother you when you're on the phone, and (b) to wait for an indeterminate length of time before getting milk when they are thirsty? Nope. On both counts. TBH my 6 year old still struggles to understand that when I am on the phone I can't do anything for him (although he is now able to wait as long as I warn him in advance and give him a chance to ask for anything first)

Other ways of dealing with that might have been (bearing in mind I am right now unstressed, unhassled, not sleep deprived, not worried about this phone call, but just to bear in mind.)

1. He makes her her milk while on the phone.
2. He puts phone call on hold to make milk and then explains he can't speak to her for a few minutes.
3. He tells her "Ask mummy" (OK probably not best but at least you could speak to her while dealing with baby whereas it's hard to divert your attention on the phone, and you won't always be busy)
4. (If relevant) You notice he is on the phone and call DD over "Daddy's on the phone love, what is it?"
5. He puts the phone call on hold to find out what she wants and then find a distraction for her.
6. He tells the person that he needs to phone them back as he's currently in charge of a three year old. And phones them back at a convenient time/when DD is occupied by something else. (Especially considering he ended up having to end the call anyway, by doing this he wouldn't have lost anything and DD would have gained. Every other option was a gain for everyone involved.)

calmly told her to stop the noise, he was on the phone and wouldn't be long, he warned her if she didn't stop she'd be in the naughty corner

This is ascribing far too much maturity to a three year old. This is about the maturity level of a seven year old. I know she seems massive compared to your baby but she is still very very little. She won't have any understanding of "on the phone" or "won't be long" and it would have seemed very arbitrary and confusing for her to end up in the corner when she just wanted some milk. Then things kept escalating and she wanted to let you know she wanted some milk.

(And didn't see another way to let you know that - see the panic response thing I was talking about above).

I really really want to stress I totally get it and I'm not saying you've damaged her - she won't even remember it in a week. AnotherMonkey is right.

It does absolutely get better. It's good you're able to recognise the last year was stressful for her and it's also good that the arrival of DS doesn't seem to have made much of a difference - it could absolutely just be an age thing. You will get the connection back :)

Oh my god, DS did this once, I'd blanked it out forgotten.

It was the getting undressed bit that reminded me.

Same thing. In time out, in his room. Got undressed and emptied every single item of clothing out of his drawers and the bedding off his bed.

Cannot believe I'd forgotten about that. Again this was after DD, he'd have been 3, maybe just 4. It was probably the beginning of the end of regular time out for us, too.

Tbh the first year of DDs life is almost entirely a blur, I look at my photos and they feel like someone else's. Bit sad about that actually.

Ah, there you go, you'll forget all about it and it will probably be a total one off! :)

Unfortunate x-post

choccie i think you'll find when you read back that the information you need to make the situation better is contained in your posts as much as it is in our 'advice' posts.

To add to bertie's post above, i was also thinking about if or how it could have been headed off at the pass. in retrospect option 6 would be the one I'd have gone for. 'I'm looking after my three year old, I will call you back when I know I'll be able to talk undisturbed'

But I don't think it was about milk. I think it was about feeling ignored by both mummy and daddy and doing what was needed (noise, more noise, lots and lots of noise) to stop that ignoring. ( even negative attention is attention).
However, I was not there, and probably the main protagonist can't tell you what it was about now so we may never know.
You and your DH both sound thoughtful and caring. You are asking for advice from professionals (HV) and people who have "been there" (us) and reflecting on a challenging time. You are doing all the right things to make things improve and I believe you will all get through this smiling.

Your DD sounds brilliant BTW. I love the baby doggy getting the infacol.

Nothing much to add to the very wise advice already given, but I just wanted to join the ranks of people saying we've all been there. Certainly we gave up on time outs because they only exacerbated the situation and didn't deal with the underlying problem. I would go for hugs whenever possible, as it will likely help you both.

The one thing I'm clear about with DD is that she's bigging up bad behaviour because the only attention she gets from me is negative attention. DS takes everything at the moment and it breaks my heart. She even sometimes says she doesn't want to see me (painful) but it is balanced by all she does all day is mirror me caring for DS with caring for her doggie. Sometimes I think she seems lonely. She even greets me with a scowl instead of a kiss when I arrive to collect her at playgroup - and bad behaviour starts with trying to get her in the car to go home (one of my most hated moments).

I tried to give DS a bottle of EBM yesterday just so DH could take over for a bit to give me time with her. But he (DS) is currently refusing the bottle. This was yesterday - makes me feel trapped and very low. In fact, I felt devastated.

Today was exceptionally bad. It's the second time she's been put in her room (ever) to calm down when out of control - the first time was a couple of months ago.

When I got back from Tesco and she was chilled about her tidy room achievement, I asked her if she remembered what happened and why she'd been in trouble - she says, very happily, 'yes, I made a noise when Daddy was on the phone'. So I don't quite know what to make of how much she understands and what's going on and why.

DH said he thinks the whole experience affected him more than her. She bounced back in seconds. She did seem to be trying harder to be helpful and behave (for about 5 minutes!)

Bertie, I'm taking you up on your offer if it applies with these: the relevant books I've got are

'No drama discipline...'
'Toddler taming'
'Happiest toddler on the block'
(None of the above read)
'Toddler SOS' - read and slightly dismissed.

Anything in these I should try get to grips with?

Again, thank you all for your input. I'm going to re-read all and give it some thought.

DS is on Omazrapole, early days yet. He still vomits up a lot but I think the crying has improved. I still can't put him down, and he's not sleeping during the day (30 mins total today), but he isn't crying as much. DH disagrees.

Our HV was here today and checked again for tongue tie and said it was fine. DS was also checked when we left the hospital as well.

I need to express small portions to keep experimenting with bottles. He rejected the Dr Browns, but I have a Medela Calma I can try as well. I really feel getting the occasional break will help.

HV also noted that I have nipple thrush . Explains why feeding is so painful. I need to overcome that before I try expressing (it was very painful last time).

.... sigh

Can I join I have 4 dds almost 10yo 7yo 3yo and 1 yo I'm really struggling I can't get youngest to sleep on her own or in her own cot my Dh works evening/nights I'm just sooo sleep deprived and grumpy.

Aah, OK, sorry, I'm going to be totally unhelpful - I haven't read any of those I'm afraid! I'll do a quick scout on google/amazon/various review sites tomorrow but I have to go to bed now. However am I right in thinking they are all naughty step type approaches? Do you have Siblings Without Rivalry or How To Talk by any chance? Those are the ones (either, not both) I'd say go for to dip into.

Getting DS home from kindergarten is (still!) one of my most hated times.

I only have one child so this might be totally impractical but I know a lot of my friends with two found a sling helpful? Or they say to get older child to snuggle up and you read to them while you breastfeed? Sorry you're feeling trapped :( I'm sure that will get better with time. One friend whose baby kept refusing bottles found that the brown latex teats seemed more readily accepted than silicon ones. Can you snatch smaller times with DD when DH is home between feeds? Or at the weekend? I can't remember how long you get between feeds at that age, I suppose it depends on the baby too.

I think your DH is absolutely right that it will have upset him far more than her - they are so forgiving and loving and just accept everything. That's why it's not the end of the world when we make mistakes, really, as long as you're not hurting and being mean to them all the time. Every day is a new slate to them - it's a nice philosophy :) I wouldn't necessarily say that just because she can parrot back to you what she was punished for it means that she understood - it just means she was told at some point that's what she'd done.

Three year old quick development ballpark idea - they are highly impulsive and find it very difficult to control these impulses even if they know there are consequences, extremely high emotions, low understanding of time - their understanding of time is limited to "past" and "right now" (she might for example use the word "yesterday" to mean any time in the past). They can't process the idea of future at all except perhaps for big exciting events like Christmas, birthdays, visiting a special relative or friend (but are often unable to understand when this is happening). They can't understand the concept of minutes at all or a short/long time, but you can count in fairly immediate events like "After your bath/two episodes of Peppa/three goes on the slide" They are totally unable to empathise or imagine any feeling other than the one they currently feel - they can't put themselves in your shoes, they can't remember that they felt sad when X happened or imagine that they will feel happy when Y happens tomorrow. In fact a lot of the time, they don't really understand that other people can have a different feeling to them. Everything is black and white. This is why they flip in and out of bad moods almost immediately. They are starting to realise other people have emotions, and when they feel neutral themselves they can identify a sad/happy/angry/etc face but if they are having a strong feeling themselves that will override that and it's not that they don't care - they can't process it. The black and white thinking applies to language too - they can't graduate between "I like this a little bit, I like that one more, I love this one the most!" it's just love/hate/like/don't like. Opposites are the order of the day. They will tend towards extremes and words to describe permanent states (I love strawberries, they are my favourite) but use them to describe temporary or less extreme states (The next day: No, hate strawberries. Nanas are my favourite. Strawberries pooey.) They are good at parroting the "right" or expected answer but that doesn't mean they understand what they are saying. Their language far outstrips their understanding of what they are saying (it's a funny language stage) - it helps to try and remember they are still really using baby talk but they like to try out new words and phrases that they come across, 99.9999% of the time they don't actually know the difference between two similar words. Don't take their words literally - imagine you're speaking to a very nice person who has learned English by reading a dictionary, and often gets the translation just very slightly "off". Assume positive intent. Three year olds are curious but they do tend to mean well. Don't take anything personally. Do take the sweet stuff literally That English dictionary again :)

They do tend to revert to super-helpful after being punished. It's a nice side effect, but I do think natural consequences/prevention/redirection/problem solving (trying to find a mutually beneficial solution) all work better as a long term solution, and they tend to be more helpful in general this way. Not all the time, obviously. But even going with a behaviourist (reward/punishment) approach it sounds like the naughty corner is causing more problems than it's solving. You could try more of a focus on the positive if all of the reflectional type stuff is too much to deal with - and I totally wouldn't blame you if it was.

Bertie they are books I bought because a parenting dire, or media article raved about them. I've no idea what they advocate. The no drama disinclined one is a new publication (I think) - the title grabbed me.

I'm happy for any tips on bottles! Thank you.

Sorry for typos and rogue words. Mutant phone and late night and one hand holding DSs head while he feeds.

Moresnow - my HV runs the breastfeeding support group in the area so she would be my source of info there as well. As an aside, she seemed knowledgable about treating ductal thrush. I mention this only because literally everyone including GPs midwives etc seemed clueless three years ago as well as now (I had ductal thrush with DD - acute agony - which is why I missed nipple thrush now with DS - less painful). HV held DS while he was screaming in the window-light peering into his mouth and said that he was able to push his tongue well out over his bottom lip. Also chatted for a long time about how it used to be treated regularly and is only being taken seriously again now etc.

The problem with the tongue-tie thing (also discussed on another thread) is it seems less about the diagnosis and more about whether the person I am seeing is qualified to make an informed diagnosis!! That's impossible for me to determine so I could end up chasing my tail. My hospital runs a breastfeeding advice/support group once a week so I think I will try them. But is their opinion more valid than HV? I live in rural Scotland, so finding a lactation consultant is not that easy. The closest one is 2 hours drive away and, ironically, also works part time in the NHS (and NHS views on tongue-tie don't seem to be 100% trusted on many threads here).

What I don't get is, if a tongue tie has to be snipped to be fixed (DD had this), surely it has to be visible? Why can't people see it? I would look but I don't know what a normal tongue looks like. I might see if my dentist has any ideas this afternoon.

I looked at the link you sent and the problem is so many of those symptoms could also be something else. e.g. He does have bubbles around his mouth from time to time, but GP and HV see this as a symptom of reflux, saying, when we feel sick, or are about to be sick, our mouths fill with saliva. Also, quite a few of those symptoms are 'if this happens it could be tongue-tie, but tongue-tie can also occur if it doesn't happen'. Not easy to get a clear idea.

Bertie - I will google the books you mention. Today I have to get DD out of playgroup and into the car fast to get to the dentist. I'm dreading it already. Our other flashpoint is around getting in the bath, and then getting out the bath! Her bedtime is getting later and later with knock on issues of tiredness. I could skip the bath, but she'd love that. Less volatile but also a problem, getting her to sit and stay at the table to eat a meal.

HV does sound well informed about BF issues which is good. But sticking tongue out is no longer thought to be evidence of lack of tongue tie. It's a tricky one because TBH there just is very little knowledge about it, even if you get someone with up to date knowledge from 2 years ago things have moved on from there. It seems really quite alarmingly common as well, much more than you'd think I reckon.

Did you post in breast and bottle feeing about it with a different name? I remember posting on a thread where someone was in rural Scotland.

This is the most up to date info I have Perhaps worth showing to your HV? She sounds interested and switched on which is good.

Although on that link it looks like the ideal is a lack of any kind of membrane which I don't think is right - you can get that part of your tongue pierced so I'm sure it's normal to have one. I have one (that I ripped when I was a teenager by accident) and DS has a line or seam but no membrane. He was no trouble to breastfeed at all. DH has a proper dip in the end of his tongue so I'm sure I'll have fun if/when we have a baby!

Hey hope everyone is having a better and a good day today. Just caught up reading a couple of pages of posts. Really sorry but no advice here! Dreading reaching that stage myself. Choccie it all sounds so tough. I hope you're pushing your gp to help you. If you could get pnd and reflux sorted then obviously you'd find the whole 3-year old stuff much easier to deal with. I'm sorry I don't have anything helpful to say but I really hope it gets better soon. If there's some colic in there with DS as well as reflux hopefully that will improve in about 3 weeks or so... Good luck and lots of hugs and and and