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Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

964 replies

BertieBotts · 31/08/2014 09:56

Terrible title sorry Grin Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework Wink (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
BlueEyeshadow · 06/11/2014 18:56

Ugh. DS1 had the biggest meltdown we've seen in years over dinner. Related to the rows earlier, but there's so much more going on in his head. He feels everything so intensely that it all ends up in an overwhelming rush of emotion that explodes out all over everyone in the general vicinity. I have no idea how to handle it, just that whatever I do seems to be wrong.

DizzyKipper · 06/11/2014 20:31

Bertie I joined the Flylady support thread in housekeeping which really helped me to establish an evening routine to keep on top of the house and keep me calmer. Though generally being rubbish at keeping up with threads I'm no longer on it, but I still follow through with my evening routine. Any good for you?

I actually used to enjoy BFing, and still like BFing DS, just not DD any more. If I wasn't worried about the jealousy/insecurity I would just make her stop as I also feel guilty and worry about whether she realises how I feel, which couldn't be nice for her. I think you're right to stop when you're not enjoying it Snow.

Hi smile, welcome to the group. I think we've all had moments that we're really ashamed of and too embarrassed to disclose, the important thing is that you care enough to try and work on it. I don't suppose it will happen overnight (for any of us), and really none of us are ever going to be that perfect parent we imagine ourselves to be, but I do think that having the strength to pick ourselves back up after an awful day and trying again counts for a lot in itself.

Sorry to hear you're having a bad day Blue, tantrums can really raise your blood pressure can't they? I feel a bit out of my depth, but the only thing that comes to mind is maybe helping your DS learn to recognise for himself when he's getting those uncontrollable feelings and then helping him find tactics for dealing with it? There's a book called 'Raising Your Spirited Child' which may have some techniques that could be useful to you.

BertieBotts · 06/11/2014 21:09

Erm, my only useful tip so far is the visualising your destination bit which you're supposed to do first. Basically you imagine what your perfect house would be like, bearing in mind your actual situation, although you can ignore stuff like "I'm too tired to keep that up" because she promises you won't be at the end - just stuff like you can't say "no kids" or "I will live in a giant mansion with staff" Grin but you could say "no toys in the living room" or "no children in my bedroom" or something because you can create solutions to that by hiding/tidying the toys away or making a rule against the bedroom.

I have done flylady before but got a bit annoyed with the tweeness although I did like her "Shine your sink, step 1: Take all of the dishes out of the sink" Grin

andsmile and Blue sorry to hear you're having bad days :( andsmile what's the dynamic like between your two? Blue did you read the Highly Sensitive Child book?

OP posts:
BlueEyeshadow · 06/11/2014 21:22

I haven't read the sensitive child book, but am just re-reading the chapter on tantrums in the spirited child one...

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 07/11/2014 09:49

Just about to leave after 4 nights away. trying not to kill my dh is challenging today. Sad Hmm

yes, sleep consultant was revolutionary. 4 weeks of worm before we touched a night waking. But he sleeeeps and daytimes are better too. She has given more skills for managing him.and his high needs.

will try and catch up later.

DizzyKipper · 07/11/2014 09:56

Well I've been a crappy parent, and it's only the morning. FS. Sad

Letsgoforawalk · 07/11/2014 12:14

Hello.

Welcome andsmile don't worry we leave our flamethrowers at the door on this thread Grin
Will be back with more specific hellos and comments later. Need a good traffic jam or for my DH to forget he is totally addicted to clash of clans and let me get hold of the ipad before he has run it down to 5% battery with his battling goblins

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 07/11/2014 20:44

I've been shite today too dizzy Sad

DizzyKipper · 07/11/2014 20:53

Commiserations Dreaming, I'm currently consoling myself with chocolate. Still, tomorrow is another day, positive thinking and all that. Sad

LittleMymble · 07/11/2014 21:29

mrpop Self settling - I was one of the posters who had success with 2nd baby self settling. Second time round I did a very relaxed version of The Baby Whisperer (EASY routine). I read her books but changed some of it. The ones that spring to mind a year on are that I breastfed a lot more than she recommends as both my boys have been really big milk drinkers, so I was doing an EAESY routine for a long time. Also she says something like you need to train your baby from day 4 or something ridiculous. I didn't implement anything until about 10 or 12 weeks because I think it's silly trying to train a newborn to be anything but a newborn. The main bits we did use were ssh pat and the confidence to leave him to settle when he was quietly babbling - she doesn't advocate leaving them to cry, and I don't either - but with our first we were almost so terrified of him ever crying that we didn't leave him to do his own thing EVER, and that led to a lot more tears down the line in the end.

LittleMymble · 07/11/2014 21:35

Hugs for andsmile, Blue, Dizzy and Dreaming and anyone else feeling shit about how they've coped recently. We've all been there, and we'll all be there again. The fact that you're talking about it, reading about it, trying to change it means you're not crappy parents. It's a bloody hard job. Flowers

Letsgoforawalk · 07/11/2014 22:32

Wise words littlemymble
dizzy you were wondering about how / if you should ask your DH for more help in the morning. My suggestion is don't ask . Bring up the whole situation as "a problem" or describe that time of day as "presenting challenges", and just chat through with him what you might both change to make things go a little smoother. You may or may not be able to have a constructive problem solving conversation with him. You never know he may just conclude that the best way to improve things would be if he got one of them dressed before having his Facebook 5 minutes Wink. Let us know how it goes if you do broach the subject Smile

I'm hoping it will help me establish an inner calm oh me too please!! What is this miraculous book?

dreaming how was centre parcs? Holidays can be hellish with toddlers and OHs that are not on the same page.....tell us about it if it would help. Flowers Cake

and smile what have you tried so far with your DS? 8 year old boys can be incredibly annoying (speaking as an ex Cub Scout helper I have a little experience of that age and gender....) so it is easy to "lose it" after incessant provocation unless you have some "supermum" tricks up your sleeve. someone on here found the simple tactic of descriptive praise turned some difficult behaviour around pretty quickly so if you are not already familiar with that it might be a good place to start.

Good luck with your weekends everyone!

ClairesTravellingCircus · 07/11/2014 23:36

Hello everyone, I still read the thread, still find I'm learning loads from all of you.
Sorry to hear about the bad days, I seem to have them quite often too.
Am finding the combination if 13y old dd and 2.8 old twins quite lethal at the moment (and thank goodness dd2 is 10 and easyish ??).

Had a big meltdown by dts this morning, a major one. It started on the way to nursery and when we got there I had no choice but to sit it out in the car, while he screamed, cried, bangef for 20 mins. Poor dts had to wait out strapped in the carseat while I made sure he didn't hurt himself. (I had people stop and peered into the car ??, parents from the nursery????). It was sooo stressful but I managed to shout only once, and keep a calm voice the rest of the time, which I'm very pleased with as I'd normally lose it too.

ClairesTravellingCircus · 07/11/2014 23:40

Pressed post too soon. It did leave me feeling utterly drained and teary. I do feel though I've made a step in yhe right direction. A glimmer of hope that I won't screw them up totally as sometimes I fear I have fone with dd1... (I know I didnt totally, but I do think our relantionship could be better now.)

ClairesTravellingCircus · 07/11/2014 23:42

And a warm welcome/hug to and smile, share away, there will no judginess on this thread. We're all mainly just muddling through!

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 08/11/2014 23:21

letsgo I can see one of your favourite books coming out in the advice for the dh in the morning (HTT?!) I think that's great advice . Was it dizzy or blue though?! dizzy i think- my short term memory is terrible, I've only just read it too Hmm

Holidays, toddlers and a grumpy husband = hell. My dh has, I feel, unrealistic expectations. It's centre parcs so all on bikes. That's 2 adults on bikes, 2 two year olds on balance bikes, 1 four year old on a pedal bike. Some bits we may make progress and go fast, way faster than if we weren't on bikes but yes , yes, there will be stopping. cajoling. Pushing up hills. More stopping. Ridiculously fearless toddlers topping 10+ mph downhill with no brakes scaring the shit out of us. No, there is no point getting angry and frustrated over lack of progress. DH also wouldn't pay out for the overpriced activities (even though they'd love them) and baulked at all mention of eating out. He wouldn't order a takeaway for us in the evening as it was £15 each. But we can't go out for a meal with 3 preschoolers asleep so let's just treat ourselves on holiday!! Plus the sleep consultant for all her miracles has not 'cured' dt1 if we're not at home so we were tired but I found the combination of tiredness, high expectations for behaviour of the dc, reluctance to splash out and then him being grumpy I (unsurprisingly) didn't want sex in the evenings hard to bear Sad We had a big argument today where he threatened we were heading for divorce and that he didn't enjoy going away. I told him I won't be emotionally blackmailed. and that I couldn't actually the heels he didn't enjoy it or wasn't happy as he does actually need to communicate with me for that...! The dc have done nothing but fight and wail and screech and he has been threatening, coercing and telling them to shut up Shock BlushSad So I'm not feeling great today, pretty low despite dh and I having a good talk (about us, and the children//parenting, though he still refuses to read the articles I email him never mind a parenting book) and good evening together tonight. Don't know what else I can do to help him be more on board with the parenting I'm trying to implement though?! He kind of admits what he's doing isn't working and that staying at home with them by himself all day would be his worst nightmare Confused Anyway. bit of a brain dump there...

My current fear is I inadvertently do too much shaming of the dc. From.the mild tutting and annoyance over spilled drinks (as we have lots of that and often due to messing about at the table) to stupidly responding to eg dt2 biting or headbutting,his current preferred violence, with "oh why did you do that dt2, that is so mean" etc. A drip, drip, drip of negativity for them though...

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 08/11/2014 23:22

Couldn't actually *tell

sorry, should spell check more

MoreSnowPlease · 09/11/2014 00:47

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

DizzyKipper · 09/11/2014 07:27

Oh that sounds really tough Dreaming. I had something similar about a month ago on my bday - day out, DD having a tantrum, DH not handling it well and getting quite shitty and bad tempered. Completely ruined my bday and had me in tears. Kids tantrums are one thing, but it really gets to me when my full grown husband starts having one as well. Have you considered going to Relate? I hope you don't mind me saying, but it sounds quite big when the word divorce is bought up. Thanks for you, I hope you can take a bit of time for yourself to do something just for you, you do deserve it.

Snow even just reading about your friend wound me up, I hate when people get superior about their parenting. I don't get why people use DC sleep as some sort of qualifier of their parenting skills, I remember when DD was young it was all I ever got asked about and people are asking about DS now as well. Young babies aren't designed to sleep through! Their little bellies are too little, they need feeding through the night. It's biology, not some sort of parenting battleground.

Speaking of people who criticise our parenting skills, my bro met DS for the first time yesterday. My bros have a habit of making little comments - usually along the lines of how spoilt DD is or how she rules the roost. Yesterday was because she needed a nap so we decided to leave to get her home to bed. We'd already been there 5 hours and in truth I wanted to go, but no, the fact that we were leaving just once again shows how DD's in charge. If we'd stayed and DD had become beside herself from lack of sleep (she was already getting grouchy) it would no doubt have proven how badly behaved she is. I wish people who didn't have a clue about kids would just stfu.

Letsgoforawalk · 09/11/2014 10:01

It's biology, not some sort of parenting battleground spot on dizzy

moresnow about your smug friend, how about you invite her to put her money where her mouth is and come over to babysit while you and your DH go off for the night to a nice hotel? Wink Alternatively, nod, smile and wait. Her turn will come. Bringing up children has many challenges, sleep is just one.

dreaming guilty as charged re the book. But it's also because it just works if egos and apportioning blame are left out of problem solving. This is something I see again and again in my profession as well as at home.

Your break sounds crap by the way Cake Flowers hope things get better and I'm glad you have been able to have a chat with DH about it. At least you are talking Smile

BlueEyeshadow · 09/11/2014 21:12

That does sound really tough, dreaming. Grr to your friend MoreSnow, and your brother too, Dizzy*. Flowers Cake

We've had a very difficult few days with DS1. He's been extra intense and hard to handle. There have been quite a lot of rows and tantrums - adult and child! A lot of disappointments and a lot of negativity. I do feel like I'm starting to understand him better,but it doesn't make it any easier to deal with, and I know I'm not handling things well.

drspouse · 09/11/2014 22:19

Hello [creeps in at the back].

We're really struggling with DS who is nearly 3, who has recently started shouting a LOT, really loudly, roaring basically, biting, and hitting.

The triggers are the usual tantrum triggers (you know, tiredness, frustration at not being allowed to do X, Y or Z, hunger, etc. etc.) but previously he would just have a "regular" toddler tantrum (mainly throwing himself to the ground and crying, or just thrashing and crying). He now does all of hiting, biting, and shouting, plus, if you try to calm him by sitting on your lap, headbutting (nearly broke DH's tooth today) and if he can't hit you or bite you, hitting or biting himself.

We have mainly been trying to calm him without excluding him i.e. sit on lap, asking him to calm down, counting to 10/talking calmly about why he's sitting down/repeating reason for holding him/asking him to say what he did and say sorry.

We kind of started with just counting to 10 but he seemed to take this as a reward but also until very recently couldn't remember what he'd done that needed to be calmed, so we added in the bit where we remind him what he did and ask him to say it.

I am not sure that this method has caused the new behaviours but it doesn't seem to be helping either. We have had to start using time out (generally in room behind stair gate but with one of us sitting outside the room) for hitting in particular. Biting is usually a response to being told off/sat to calm down/restrained from doing something, rather than a first strike IYSWIM. We couldn't really use time out till recently because we were potty training (which by the way has gone pretty well if slowly, surprisingly) and he would tend to just wee on the carpet but that seems to have gone thankfully.

So... help... what do we do?

DH acknowledges that he may be feeding the roaring by making it a game, I am trying to get him not to do that. And while I also know that me shouting does not help, and I have been shouting too much, I am trying to respond to roaring with either ignoring or a reminder that we like quiet voices/quiet animals.

But I find it really hard not to shout, loudly, in pain when he hits or throws something hard or headbuts/bites. I just don't feel he gets that it really, really hurts when he hits you in the eye with a hard object. He does seem surprised when you yell! And it's particularly hard when with other adults (e.g. we were visiting my DM) to completely ignore things like that, as clearly she is not going to ignore it. And me shouting is I think something that he sees makes me feel less frustrated, so he may be trying it for that reason.

I am not sure that he is really a "sensitive" or "explosive" child. He can be very sunny, very lovely, he has quite good language, he's generous to other children (at nursery, if he picks up another child's toy, it's to make sure they don't forget it, not to take it away), we praise him for all of that, we've had a particularly bad couple of days at my DM's but this new "challenge" has been just the last few weeks.

BertieBotts · 09/11/2014 23:45

OK I swear I'm only coming on for a quick post and then to bed Grin

Hi drspouse. Firstly I would say never ever feel guilty or worry about shouting as a response to pain or danger - it's a natural response and there for a reason! Definitely not damaging. Shouting is unhelpful if you're doing it in a berating way or as a response to shouting, but you shouldn't censor yourself shouting in pain. IMO.

What was the problem with the counting to 10? My feeling would be if it helps him calm down does it matter if he thinks of it as a reward? Or do you mean he was doing stuff in order to be allowed to count to 10? Could you let him count to 10 any time without the other behaviour to give him the message he doesn't have to do something to be made to count to 10? I don't think that small children actually like doing the hitting/biting/screaming stuff, it's not actually very nice for them either. Imagine how you feel when you get the urge to scream or hit - it's a stressful, unpleasant feeling. And it's not like they do it randomly when they're having fun.

At three it's all about simple. I'd say this: "asking him to calm down, talking calmly about why he's sitting down/repeating reason for holding him/asking him to say what he did and say sorry." is a bit much bombarding him unless the quiet talking is helping him to calm down - lots of info bombarding is probably going to be annoying/and or a bit "information overload" and feed into it. If there is one thing I learned about three year olds it's that when they are in that space you just CAN'T reason or anything with them, and it stresses everyone out to try. Simple, predictable, firm, but you don't need to be harsh.

If you think about it from his position, he's acting out because he doesn't understand that he can't have something or do something or something is wrong. The reason might seem insignificant to us but it's really, really important to them. You can try reflecting his feelings back to him "Oh DS you look very angry and cross. Are you cross about X?" I think that perhaps making him repeat what he has done wrong is counterproductive? It's focusing on the bad behaviour which sounds like it is a loss of control, where he might not really have been fully aware and in control of what he was doing. It's quite a lot to expect a 3 year old to then take responsibility for that (which is what you're doing when asking him to repeat it and say sorry). At this age I used to tell DS the effect (Daddy is hurt now,) and give the suggestion (It might make him feel better if you say sorry and give him a cuddle). It was hard though because actually it was mostly on me and it's hard to discipline and be the victim all at once! One thing which we've found helps when he gets out of control recently, as has happened a couple of times, is to hold him so he's facing away in a sort of hug - he can't hurt you or himself, then. He does and always did awful screaming saying "You're hurting me!" but as long as you're not squeezing really tight, you're not hurting them, and then you can repeat quite calmly in a low pitched voice "I won't let you hurt me or yourself. I know you feel angry. I can't let you hurt me." He is six now though so it really DOES hurt when he hits now! Thankfully extremely rare these days, but we always get the escalation if we try to give consequences too quickly/without warning or react with any kind of force. DH is a bit of one for retaliating quickly as he thinks he should be "in charge" but it doesn't always help.

Also redirection helped a lot with DS when he was little. Saying "You can hit the sofa but not people". And immediate removal of any toy used to hit or about to be used to hit, no questions, no exceptions. Removed until he was really properly calm and had been for a while. (I sometimes used to forget and find random cupboards full of trains that had been missing for months Blush)

He sounds very very similar to my DS and I think he does sound sensitive if he's thinking about other DC like that - sensitive doesn't necessarily mean "difficult and odd" - they can be very very pleasant children, especially around settings which aren't home. I'm starting to find a lot of sensitivities with DS that I took for granted or didn't notice before, and I really struggled with the ages of 3-5, but I think I would have struggled less if I was able to actually realise what was going on earlier. I just thought his reactions were normal - and to an extent, they were - I wasn't very good at reacting in a consistent way. I tried too hard to be "gentle" and ended up just being confusing.

Blue I read something the other day which made me laugh - in the middle of an article a woman said "it would be incredible if children could come out already six years old. You could just help them with their issues instead of inventing new ones." So true. Exactly how I feel. Except I'm starting to realise that maybe I'm putting too much pressure on myself and DS would have DS' issues whether I was his mum or not and maybe it is okay to just try and figure them out and our way around them and not fix everything. I mean everyone has issues, right? So many of us worrying about whether there's a diagnosable "thing" when maybe it's just them being their unique selves and it's just that in the past we saw things more simply and a child was just being naughty/lazy/dramatic etc.

MoreSnow Angry about the friend, how insensitive. I hate it when people are smug about things. Here's a clue: There is no magical perfect method that works for everyone! Let's hope she has a contraception failure who doesn't sleep through until three years old Wink

Dreaming I feel like I do too much shaming too. My default actually is criticism. It can help to try and catch yourself doing it and then consciously try and comment on one positive thing even though it feels fake.

Sorry to hear about your stressful holiday. It definitely sounds like he had totally unrealistic expectations. Horrid that a break should end up being so stressful :( It totally pushes the brink of your relationship, this small children parenting stuff. Make or break. I've done both (break with XP, been pushed right to the brink with DH but make with him, obv) after stressful times and it does always work out to be what's right in the end. If you come through it then you're stronger together and if you don't then it wasn't right anyway.

Claire Show me ONE parent who has a perfect relationship with their 13yo?! :)

LetsGo The book is called "The Life Changing Magic of Tidying". General consensus on the thread (in Good Housekeeping) is that Marie Kondo is vv young and doesn't have DC and probably lives alone in a swish tiny Japanese house and so Doesn't Get It, but her advice is oddly calming anyway.

I am now at the point where scrolling up to find a post to respond to is too far and makes my finger hurt so I'm going to sign off now (it's also taken me 40 minutes to write this post Hmm sorry and hello to anyone I've missed! :)

OP posts:
drspouse · 10/11/2014 07:57

I think the issue with the counting on our laps to calm down was that he did, as you say, do things in order to get to sit on our laps to count. It was becoming a reward. When I say we hold on our laps till he's calm, I think I'm talking about what you are saying - holding him still till he's calm - but he CAN hurt us, he headbutts us (DH says he nearly had his tooth out), bites himself, hits himself.

We also find that if we say "you hurt Daddy, he's sad, you need to say sorry" he just hits, says sorry, hits again, says sorry again. It just becomes a game.

We do take away any toy or object used for hitting. I'm not completely sure I'm a fan of hitting a thing instead of a person. I have heard it just means they get to be violent, if you see what I mean, teaches them that hitting is a good response? Not sure what I think about that.

BertieBotts · 10/11/2014 08:33

I suppose but it did help DS and he doesn't hit any more apart from maybe twice a year when he gets really, really out of control over something. You could see him really struggle and then redirect himself - I remember one time he bit the stairs in absolute fury and I had to try really really hard not to laugh! I think it's about stages - first you redirect to hitting non-people, then you redirect to something which isn't hitting, and they sort of grow out of the need for it. It's easier to find other options the older that they get, e.g. I've now told DS he can write a letter or a note to explain what he's angry about, which he couldn't have done before he could write confidently. I know what you mean because I hate for example grown men punching walls and claiming it's better than hitting a person - well yeah, but barely! But a pillow or something as an in between method did seem to help, and they are only little.

I tried a couple of times to make a "calm down corner" which had big pillows for hitting, old newspapers to tear up, you could also put (sturdy) board books in there to read, old teething rings to bite on, some kind of sensory stuff like a glitter bottle, soft lighting, blanket to hide under. It never really worked well with the layout of our house, but DS loved the idea and it did work OK for some of the time.

Also asking them what helps them to calm down is a good one. DS bizarrely used to say that he needed a drink of milk and that actually worked. If they're doing stuff to get to the "calm down activity" then you could look at making the calm down activity just a normal place which isn't negative or positive particularly, something they can access any time by asking or just going there themselves. If you think about it, it's not supposed to be a terrible scary punishment, it's supposed to help them learn how to regulate themselves. If taking themselves off and counting is a positive/fun thing to do then encourage that! Perhaps he was hitting (etc) on purpose because he could feel he was getting to the point of being out of control and he wanted to do a countdown but thought that was the only way to get it. You could introduce the idea of a scale and ask him - how's your angry-ometer? Either as a pictoral thing (with a green happy, orange medium and red angry face) or a kind of gauge scale, or ask him out of 10. Then ask him how you can help him get back down to a zero, or green or happy. If he likes superheroes you could talk about the Hulk how he gets angry and becomes a monster not like his real self and sometimes we feel like that, but it's okay because we're not really a hulk, and we can control it before we get to that stage. (I am also much better at recognising now the signs before the meltdown happens and nipping the spiral in the bud but it takes time to learn those signs).

When he went through a stage of hurting but us not being able to restrain him then I used to put him in his room and shut the door :( Horrible but if they are hurting you I didn't know what else to do.

Do you explain that hitting again means that the sorry wasn't real and didn't count? Have you explained to him what sorry actually is? This is part of why I don't insist sorry is said - I will suggest it and explain why and usually you don't get one straight away but when you do get one later it is heartfelt.

Sorry just kind of brain dump there with stuff that worked/ideas, sorry if none of it is relevant! :)

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