Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

TBH, that's one of the things I found hard about the Buttons book - it all seemed to be "you're this way because your parents screwed you up" but I think I had a pretty normal upbringing and good relationship with my parents too. There was lots in the book about "what things did you get in trouble for?" and I just can't remember. Don't get me wrong, I remember being in trouble, but not what it was about!

My parents were strict though, and I did definitely come away with a standard of "children must always do as they're told" which I don't now believe rationally but still has a way of coming out in times of stress. I'm trying to modify it to the one mentioned up-thread about instilling values rather than obedience per se.

I had quite a tough time at school though, and I think a lot of my parenting issues are to do with self-esteem problems stemming from that - hence the wellbeing course I'm doing.

Thankyou for the welcome everyone, and the advice. You're right Letsgo and Dreaming I definitely need to give her more 1:1 time and praise her good behaviour. I do try to remember this but could probably do more. Last night DD had gotten off from my lap, then a min later DH said he needed to bring DS over to me as he was hungry - cue DD wailing no and running over as quickly as possible to claim my lap back. It must be hard for her

Bertie I know what you mean about feeling you should be the perfect parent, it gets so stressful doesn't it? It's worse because I know I'm absolutely not.

Sorry I have to cut this reply short. Need to get myself and the kids ready and then we're off out to the shops. Hope everyone has a good day and shall catch up later.

Well. A bit of homework and everyone's back! What does that say about us?
Just dropping in quick. Posting on phone as I'm away staying with DD1 at her flat. We went to a gig last night (her graduation present to me) and I'm enjoying a lie in. Meeting her new BF for lunch (must not be intimidating! ) will post about my upbringing later (need a proper keyboard for this .....) as I consider it is a significant influence on how I parent now and why I read books about parenting. I don't want to rely on what was 'imprinted' in me a child.
Oh and bertie it's not so much about 'self improvement' for me. I think I'm fine, have reached mid late forties and its easier , it feels good to be older

*imprinted on me as a child

Feel horrible today. Have literally exploded with dd1 (13)for something pretty minor.
It was out of my mouth before I could stop myself. Mostly because of pent up issues that had nothing (or little) to do with her. I am screwing it up big time with her. No wonder she doesnt want to spend time with me.

Hi claires sorry to hear about your explosion. I know that feeling, how would she respond if you apologised and told her what you put in that post?
As a hormonal 13 year old she may recognise the drip-drip-explosion (boom ) scenario and by giving her an adult response you might get a bit of empathy and solidarity going on between you.
If it was a work colleague that you had inappropriately blown up at how would you retrieve the situation?
Happy saturday everyone I'm home again with the bickering teenagers and messy kitchen....

Evening all!

Homeowrk first: again, I think my parenting was mostly good. We were comfortably off, didn't lack opportunities or love. My mum was a SAHM and very dedicated. She definitely shouted sometimes but about us arguing (me and my dsis, 21 months younger), us not tidying up etc and she could be a bit irritable. I don't remember my childhood in a bad light because of that which is a lovely thing to realise actually. My dad was very calm- and only specatcularly lost his temper a few times which I remember. They split up when I was 10 though and that totally destroyed my 10 year old world. I still can't quite believe people can really be happily married for long times- or at least not me.

I also totally lost it at bedtime yesterday. In hindsight frustration that it was taking so long and I wanted a quick one as DT2 hadn't napped again- he's just dropping his nap- and DD was tired. It got as late as ever. I think 8pm is way too late for a no-nap 2 year old.

In all honesty I am being bloody awful to the dc at the minute. I'm like jekyll and hyde. One minute I'm calm and fine, the next I've lost my temper and I'm screeching at them. So yesterday I went batshit crazy as i was having a wee and suddenly the DTs started slamming a door repeatedly. Then crying and DD shouts 'he's got his fingers stuck'. Well, i leapt off the toilet and flipped my lid. Absolutely screamed at them then left the room to calm down. Another time I was trying to cook tea, DTs fighting and crying over thomas the tank engine stickers. DD asking for help wth her crafting. Again just overwhelmed but I got SO cross with DT2 for just sticking the stickers to the floor. ARgh!!! I think my triggers are having been ill and feeling tired and washed out. Late bedtimes for dc leading to late evening for us and then as I have to read my book for a bit before going to sleep I am turning the lights off at 11:30. And I am ashamed to admit, the flipping phone time is up again- ie distracted and then cross when the shit hits the fan with the dc or when I'm super late, again, for something.

Today was a better day. I took 2 dc to the playground this morning and played with them the whole time. DH gardened with the other boy. Home, did lunch, napping twin to bed, other watched a film with DH while DD and I collected my dsis new curtain material. Autumn leave pictures with the 3, and a hot chocolate (one incident of me shouting as dt2 kept painting dt1 hand with glue which dt1 was hyterical about, he's so sensory defensive, so moved dt2 away, slid his chair abruptly to the other side, he cried, I got cross. Finally did cuddle him and gave all the hot chocolate and an apple). Then all out on the road on scooters before tea. DD did a kids magasine thing with me vaguley helping while trying desperately to tidy the kitchen, boys arguing over the trains. Calm bedtime bar one DT1 tantrum (wrong books). But even on a 'better' day I'm still losing it as though I'm the child not them at least once. FFS. I feel like it is Catch 22 though. If they're not busy, they fight or destroy stuff. If it's too busy I get overwhlemed/too many things out to tidy etc. I don't actually care if we did less if it could all go calmly- which I realise is down to me...

My personal homework is going to be Revisit the less screentime and earlier nights. I really, really, want to be better.

And claires I can imagine all too well how easy it is to rage at them. I do it to my DD as the eldest- they're unfortunately also the ones we expect most from as the elder and I am so guilty of flipping over a tiny thing with them when actually its me feeling stressed for other reasons. I'm sure she'll forgive you. I like the thoguht of how would you fix it if it were a work colleague (don't pretend it's one of my old colleagues- last I heard they were in external mediation for the bitter in-fighting )

I can totally relate to the dr jeckill and mr hyde feeling
I did apologise, by text, as she was watching videos with aupair.

I sent a straight apology with no 'buts'. She didnt say anything about it but was behaving normally at dinner.
I do feel like my mum sometimes, just the worst parts though. She was mostly a good mum, I'd say almost an AP before its time! But she could be very moody, easily offended, and prone to depression. Sometimes she'd give us the silent treatment for days and we had no clue as to what we'd done! Dad was v old fashioned, very strict, hardly ever played or spent time with us. He mellowed a bit when we were older but died when I was 18.

I'm trying not to be as strict as my dad as that was way excessive, I also try to be less judgemental than my mum, but fail big time. I also suffer from moods and definitely prone to depression. I don't stand a chance do I?

Ps I'll think about what you said Letsgo , but tbh I find it difficult, as I can't imagine a work colleague answering back like that!

Phew I'm back, hopefully I'll be able to catch up now.

Waves to pook. I posted on that thread you started and it's because of that thread that I learned of this place, so thankyou

That sounds awful about the flat Snow, thank goodness you'll be gone soon! And the new person with similar aged children and dog terrorism going on would be me . Perhaps I need to bite the bullet and start voluntarily getting up before I have to, to ensure definite quality 1:1 time with me and DD - and then continue trying to snatch what I can through the day. We're normally up at 6.30 anyway and go downstairs for breakfast whilst DH stays with DS until 6.45. But I could start getting up at 6 instead, ensuring a nice guaranteed 45mins of ust me and DD (though tbh I kind of dread the tohught of being up that early). Earlier today, after DD had a tantrum, I took her into bed and gave her a cuddle whilst talking to her and talking about DS. I asked sometimes if she felt pushed out and she said "yeah", poor little girl

Eep interesting question Monkey and I fear if I got too into it I could end up writing a novel. So not dwelling on any facet of it too much, I actually think the relationship with my older bro was in many ways more significant as he was depressed and suicidal and this caused quite a volatile atmosphere within the house and has had a marked effect on me, though is definitely not the only variable. As an adult I've come to realise it could have and should have been handled differently by my parents - for instance my mum asked him when he was a teen if he wanted to go to counselling, he said no, that was the end of that. Looking back I wonder, why didn't they force him? They knew he was depressed, they knew he was suicidal (by the number of times he'd end up shouting about how he should go kill himself), he was young and ultimately it was up to and on them to make the decision for him, so why didn't they? There was quite a pervasive need in my family (ie my mum, I feel she hid a lot of it from my dad) to sweep things under the rug rather than deal with them - which was also pretty bad for me as it turns out.
I've not grown up nearly as emotionally healthy as I could have been. This has led me to being more fearful than most I guess that I might 'muck up' my kids, and so I've spent a lot of time reading and thinking and questioning and second guessing - perhaps making me worse as a parent because at least if I had confidence within myself I could make a decision and get things done. I also fear becoming too much like my mother (which I feel guilty about saying as she's not at all a bad person, she just had more on her plate than she could cope with and I guess coped with it by refusing to recognise it) - unfortunately for us though when I think of her I don't really remember the good things, I remember some one screaming and shouting and some one who wasn't really there for me. I want to be there for my children and I really don't want to muck them up! I'm really worried that I will.

BlueEyeshadow the wellbeing course sounds interesting (I strongly suspect I could do with being on something similar!). Would you mind telling me a bit more about it?

Hope the BF meet up went well LetsGo.

Sorry to hear about the explosion Claire, I agree with LetsGo - could you apologise to your daughter? No one ever gets it right all the time but a genuine apology can really mean a lot and go quite far in building bridges.

It is frustrating when the children get to bed late though isn't it Dreaming? I hope this doesn't sound awful but I do feel relieved sometimes when DD goes to bed. It's not even like I do much in the evening, just a bit of housework, food prep, maybe a bit of TV or internet before going to bed, but it's my time and it's the only relief I get. Which made me wonder, do you get any time to look after you? If not maybe that's adding to the stress. I think I'll join you in the less screen time and earlier bed homework though - just before DS was born we pretty much gave in and let her watch TV whenever she wanted as I was really struggling in late pregnancy. I hate it though and really want to cut back.

And thank goodness I'm all caught up, or at least am unless some one else has posted in this time . I feel like a bad thread participant but I often struggle to keep up with threads, I don't want to ignore people, or post and be all about me me me, but I do sometimes find things move a bit too quickly for me. Which is my way of warning the rest of you that I might be a bit bad and disappear and reappear from time to time, but I'm not meaning to be rude and ignore you - it's just probably because I'm having difficulty keeping up.

Eep ok I x-posted, sorry Claire.

moresnow congrats on the anti-jealousy tactics that sounds like a great idea. I hope the house move goes well and that your lovely new house is all you need it to be
dizzy I think most of us dip in and out so I wouldn't worry about being me me me or absent, sometimes it does fly along and its a big ask for busy folk to 'answer' everything.

My parenting was very loving from my mum and dad. They both worked hard and have been incredibly supportive over the years. They are together still although one of the things that maybe wasn't terribly healthy is the way my Mum talks to and about my Dad. She is quite critical ( 'oh your dad is daft' or "Letsgo dad you are stupid you don't do it like that" etc etc) my DH has noticed and issued a 'don't turn into your mother' type warning. Although she loves him and would be utterly lost without him I think she has no idea that she does it and would deny it angrily if I brought it up. My dad is lovely. Mum is also generally quite critical and judgemental ( she'd fit in well on mn some days IYKWIM.....) I remember doing things like helping in the kitchen and getting called "cack handed" and told off for splashing the sauce up the pan or shaking flour onto the surface. She gets anxious and wound up easily, and the combination of this, the critical tendency and her inability to listen to what people are telling her means she is barely welcome in my brothers house these days. The pattern seems to be reproducing itself there, he seems to have got into a similar situation with his wife intimating that he can barely put his socks on without a diagram. (A whole other thread there.......)

so I find myself with what I call "a critical narrative" running through my head on many days. I do what I can to sift the reasonable from the unreasonable, and try to keep it from spilling out of my head!

The past affects us and how we parent, but we have choices and children are not bits of plasticine to be moulded. The whole process is dynamic and changes with each relationship.

My self esteem was crap growing up, I also messed this up with my eldest but am ( I hope) doing a better job with my younger two. Eldest seems ok now, her new bf is lovely!
My DCs are good today, although I know the eldest has gone upstairs wearing her roller blades which unnerves my health and safety brain. I'll go now and the make her take them off!

Hi guys. Just letting you all know that I'm still here reading your replies regularly even if I'm not posting. DD (dc3) is a delightful baby and I'm loving every second with her :) However, despite my oath when she was born to stop shouting at my boys lasted all of a couple of days :( My biggest button pusher with them is the rough play and DS 1 not knowing when to stop. I'm trying to be better and let the little things go, but DH is at home at the moment (half term) and as I've said before, he has expectations of them that are just not age appropriate and it causes all sorts of conflicts. He thinks they should obey every single request and when they don't and I explain why or that it's "normal", he just doesn't believe me.

Anyway, must dash. I can't burp a baby and type at the same time!

Oh dear, just had a massive meltdown with the boys. Could feel the intensity rising in all of us, but nothing I tried to do to dissipate it was working and it all went to pot. Currently hiding up here to try and gain some distance but the boys are now calling for me, and arguing about whether it was the washing machine or the microwave which just beeped. (It was the microwave but DS1 won't believe that!) Oh dear, now I can hear fighting!

I have a question about taking yourself out of the situation and counting to 10.

What happens in my house is during the time I am out of the situation, it gets worse! I don't want to yell at them for doing whatever (in this case, toilet paper ALL over the upstairs) so I tell them I want it picked up, they say "NO!" and I grit my teeth and leave the room before I chuck them and the lot of it out of the window (not really!).

In that time it gets 100 times worse. Now they are both fighting about bedtime. There is still loo paper everywhere.

I am ineffective and basically useless as a parent, aren't I? They ignore me if I shout and they ignore me if I don't. It's like lord of the fecking flies.

There wasn't actually a question in that post... sorry!

What do you come back with after you've given yourself a "time out" ?

I have LOVED reading the replies about upbringing. A*s all round. I really should have asked that question at a time when I could get onto mumsnet for enough time to reply . Honestly, nobody needs to worry about not contributing well enough to the thread - the whole point of it is that our lives are a bit bonkers at the moment.

I'm not even sure where to start with my parents - it truly is a whole other thread. But every time I see them I come away feeling like my heart has broken a bit more. It's like a really deep sadness. Something is broken and I don't even understand why.

pookamoo "lord of the fucking flies" just made me splutter, that's so funny. I was listening to DS and DH earlier, DS was being a pain and DH did a big authoritative boomy instruction and DS did not give a shit. I was ...how can he just not be bothered? Completely agree about the chaos that can ensue in the 10 second calm down!

mandbaby good to hear from you :) is all well with your DD?

pookamoo - don't have an answer about taking yourself out of the situation because it's something I really struggle with myself, but just wanted to say that you're not ineffective and useless. I'm coming to see that not giving ourselves negative labels is just as important as not doing it to our children.

((hugs)) and on offer here for the times when it seems that way.

pookamoo that is exactly what happens if I leave to calm down- it all escalates. so I come.back in and get even crosser. will look forward to any useful ideas. I feel just as ineffective as you describe mostly... though there's been a few good moments recently there have been some shite ones too...

Thanks, everyone. Perhaps it is a myth!

My copy of "Peaceful Parenting" arrived today, so I am about to turn MN off and start reading!

I'm just trying to decide whether to tell DH I want him to start getting 1 of the DC's dressed in the morning. I'm not sure whether it would be unfair to do or not. I get up with DD at 6.30 and have breakfast, he stays in bed with DS until 6.45 at which point [in theory] he gets up, brings DS to me and then gets showered and dressed. Once he's finished I then get to shower and dress. He leaves at 7.30. I'm thinking that whilst I shower he could at least be washing and dressing DS, typically he just has DS on his lap whilst browsing fb. He doesn't keep an eye on DD, usually she's outside the shower screaming at me. This morning she tried harassing the cat and got scratched.

My morning has been really crap, not even finished dressing either DC and I've been a crap mum to DD. I know this is my fault as I should've just got on with it and sorted them both out asap, but I also feel a bit put out that I always need to be on the ball - that I can't ever have a morning or day "off." I know fb in the morning is his waking up/relaxation time before getting on with a full day at work, would I be mean to take that away from him when I could just man up/get on with things/put less pressure on myself during the day?

The them totally ignoring authority thing is baffling isn't it? I suppose part of that it a memory from childhood of that voice meaning a precursor to something a bit scary whereas today we're so set on discipline not being scary (I am, anyway) that they don't really have any meaning assigned to it. One of those weird disconnect things. Don't want them to be scared but perhaps forgetting or not realising what purpose that fear served! When I think about it like that then I do feel glad that they aren't scared but it's still frustrating when they have no sense of urgency/seriousness about something.

Pooka I would say if they're being destructive or fighting or whatever then you need to take them out of the situation, not you. Separate them or whatever.

I also had trouble with giving myself a "time out" in that I would do it but DS wouldn't respect that I was doing that and would follow and chase me all over the house which just made me even more stressed. I occasionally sit in my bedroom with my back against the door now and can mostly tune him out while I think for a couple of minutes but that might not work with two either.