Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

There's about three examples of it in practice for "stop" activities later on, one is a child whining that they can't have crisps before bed (situation repeated from the introduction), a couple where the child retaliates against it and one where there's an "automatic 3" with no counting.

Basically the whole principle is that you don't discuss, lecture, negotiate, explain, anything. (Bear with me because I have some thoughts on this) - you say "That's one" and then if they continue, after a few seconds "That's two" and if you get to it then "That's three - take five" and take them for a time out. But after the time out that's it - you don't say "Right why were you in there, what's going to happen next time" etc etc, it's just done and you carry on with your day. Read the whole preview for a better explanation, especially the FAQ bit near the end.

I think that because of the lack of explanation etc it would be something I'd want to use vvv sparingly. And I wouldn't use it for tantrums because I really don't think tantrums are manipulative - they're emotional. Yes the emotion might be related to something they want rather than need, but they're only little!

The preview doesn't explain what to do for "start" activities except not to use 123 on them. Hmm not intrigued enough to buy the book... yet!!

On the obedience thing. You're right about adults being responsible for themselves whereas DC can't be and we are ultimately responsible. I also get the idea about needing to put the boundary down - but there's no reason for a boundary to always be set with a punishment, true there are some things I've found no other way to keep the boundary, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way.

If you think about use of car seats. This is usually a black and white thing for most parents. The car seat must be used. But there are so many ways that you can enforce this boundary.

• You can encourage them with a toy they only have in the car or a snack.
• You can explain (and some people even physically demonstrate) why they need to be in a car seat.
• You can make sure that the car seat is comfortable and perhaps switch to a different kind or a different position in the car if it's a problem.
• You can give them some control over the situation by letting them climb in themselves.
• You can do the training thing that you (AM) mentioned earlier in the thread, where you keep restarting the scenario until you get the outcome you want.
• You can refuse to start the car until the car seat is done up properly.
• You can use your adult strength to physically overpower them and force them in, and buy gadgets which stop them being able to undo the straps.
• You can use dire threats and punishments (it's one of the few situations I've ever seen MNers suggesting smacking)

What you would never do is say "Oh never mind, just this once it won't matter".

If you can think of all boundaries in this way then it's easier to be strong about enforcing them, you don't have to do the same thing every time, it's just important that you don't let them go over it ever.

Argh - sudden exit sorry for Dr Who time, will probably be back later :)

Bollocks! I've been a bit crap today. well, once this morning and then at bedtime. Threatened to pop all the balloons the dc were arguing over this morning. Shouted at dt2 at bedtime for going downstairs (normally banned once in pajamas) to get a driver for his digger. I shouted and made him jump and cry. I apologised when he was in bed and he asked me to promise not to shout at him again

So I have attempted to tidy the house this evening. DH off walking up a Dales hill in the dark with 3 friends (one most his mother last Friday) haven't even managed to clear the kitchen counter fully. BUT I will read some of the peaceful parents book. I'm ashamed of shouting. It was way out of proportion to the behaviour. One small boy fetching more toys?! shout worthy? seriously?! I'm so frustrated with myself. At least I handled a huge dd meltdown in public at a children's party more reasonably.

I'm wondering why I'm failing to improve. Not really accepting my own adjusted expectations? Not committed to the plan? just bloody useless at it? I do think I've got better at some things. Lots I'm sure. But my 'adult-tantrums' about them not listening at bedtime and not following my rules are ridiculous.

anothermonkey I agree they have to know you're in charge of the schedule for the most part because of school/work. I guess the boundaries you set (school clothes must be on, breakfast eaten etc) are all reasonable and it's about giving choices within that if it helps- do you want breakfast before or after getting dressed?! Or at least being empathic when they don't want to go. But in practice getting out the house is a flipping nightmare for me. I have been 30 minutes late to preschool both days this week and last week. For a 3 hour session- that's pretty crap. I also find not getting shouty or passive aggressive while trying to get out of the house on a time schedule really hard. I hear myself flapping "we're going to be so late" waaay to much. Or saying "do you not want to go to preschool? Fine. We'll just stay in" or some idiotic passive-aggressive nonsense to them.
I await the discussion with interest.

*lost his mother

Oh hang on, it seems there are too many 123 magic books on amazon! This is the preview I read: www.amazon.co.uk/1-2-3-Magic-Effective-Discipline-Parenting/dp/1889140430/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

I actually looked this up though to give a warning - there's a description on page 37 about parents who had used actually abusive "punishments" on their children (Apparently in the US they don't take children away from abusive parents, just make them take parenting classes ) - physical and emotional abuse which made me feel really sick to read. If you're sensitive, avoid that page. It doesn't have anything useful on it anyway. TBH I thought it was pretty horrible to stick those anecdotes with no warning in the middle of a parenting book :(

Dreaming, I get all of the guilt about failing to improve too! I have decided to just accept a fair bit of it though and think that it will probably improve naturally as they get older.

It's definitely true they don't develop full empathy until later, too. But in the meantime you can make it clear that violence and name calling (etc) are not acceptable, and lay out ground rules about other things like animals etc.

Sorry I'm being so vague tonight. Need to go to bed I think.

Tough weekend this weekend.

DD as usual.

DS: He is being purposefully and persistently silly or rude until I get cross. But it's like it's a test, both of where the boundaries lie and of how much I love him. And I'm failing because I can't find a way to make him stop without getting cross. But every time I get cross our connection weakens. I feel like my heart is breaking a little again. It's so bloody hard sometimes :(

Dreaming - I'm just the same - completely frustrated by my inability to improve. According to the Buttons book it's all to do with hang ups from our own childhoods, ingrained beliefs about ourselves etc.

I found this about adult tantrums if it's of any help, and also these resources to deal with anger - sorry if they've been linked before.

Thank you so much everyone, I read the replies earlier in the week but didn't have a chance to reply, I've been using distraction a lot which seems to be helping (thanks pp!)
She climbs on the window sill, I say no and take her down, then instead of mn doing my incredibly important task which involves ignoring her until she does something wrong me focusing less on her I actually set up an activity so she doesn't want to climb up again, and it seems to be working! I also feel like I'm engaging with her more which is fab :)

I'm glad dd isn't the only one who hates the reins, if she feels even a slight tug then she just sits down and refuses to move :/

Your all doing a great job, and jt a actually nice to see that people feel like they are improving some day, maybe there's a chance of that for us all!!

The descriptive praise thing is cool, but I do feel like one of those parents who are loud/ competitive. Eg- at the drs dd was about to take all of the magazines out of the rack, I asked her not to and to come and give me a cuddle instead, and she did and the response of 'good listening dd, thank you' was snarled at by a few other parents.. Am I doing it wrong? :/

First rule of parenting: Ignore other parents They might have been grumpy because they were feeling ill or they'd been up all night with an ill child?

Personally the phrase "good listening" makes my teeth itch but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it if it's working for you. I think in that situation I wouldn't particularly have praised at all unless it's a current flashpoint, I might have said "Thank you for listening" or "Thank you for doing as I asked".

Plus I think the "loud parenting" thing is a, mostly about other people feeling bad about themselves, and b, when it's genuinely "loud parenting", it's about tone and intent. You know when somebody is saying something for the benefit of everybody else in the room rather than their own child. You can tell because they use this nursery teacher like tone and a louder than necessary voice and then they beam around at everybody as if to say "Look what an awesome parent I am!"

But no, it doesn't matter, whatever you do there will always be someone who falls differently on the spectrum of parenting, there will always be someone in the room who thinks that you are being too nice and not firm enough, and there will always be someone who thinks that you're being too strict. So ignore all of them and do what you think is right, what works for you and your DD.

BTW no problem with posting old links, the thread is so long it's probably a good thing to have them posted again anyway :)

For anyone wondering about descriptive praise, and for dreaming and monkey (it is also a bit of non political "spinning")
Even though it is really tough you still try every day to do the right thing for your children. dreaming, despite looking after three really Young children alone while your husband was away supporting his friend, you still managed to find the time to clear up in the kitchen.

Now where was I? Oh yes, dreaming only 30 mins late for playgroup, the other week you said you were 45 mins late so 30 mins looks like an improvement to me, 15 mins quicker! You had the self control to calm down after snapping, and apologised to your DT2 modelling to him the right way to behave after a temporary temper.
monkey you have come so far since you started this thread, I bet none of us have the slightest idea how many people have found it helpful but I bet it's a big number. You may be having a few bad days, but you know things will get better again and you know what work you have to do to make that happen.

All sounds pretty damn impressive to me. Don't beat yourself up . Who was that "perfectionist" author?

While I've been typing DD3 has made DD2 a mug of hot chocolate (at my suggestion) as amends for making her cry earlier, she also (her own idea) did a silly song and dance routine to make her laugh. Alls well now....for now.

blue I like those links, ta

pinkandblue I completely agree with bertie on the business of the frosty looks! Pay no attention. I guess as an alternative you could say in her ear something like 'thank you for coming straight back over when I asked. We could choose a magazine together if you'd like to? ' but I bet your daughter registered the praise and that's what's important - I don't see anything wrong with 'good listening'. I found those links really useful, I don't remember seeing them before.

letsgo I love you in an Internet forum, never met you kind of way . Thank you for your encouragement, I think it probably means more than you realise.

Your DDs sound fab, by the way. What a lovely way to make up.

aw shucks monkey you say the nicest things.
I was worried that post might come over as patronising, what I was trying to say was that we should extend to ourselves the same kindness and belief that "tomorrow can be better " as we do to our children.

[quick post to say I'm still reading, can't find the energy to post, things not so great now, as twins must have clocked on they're supposed to be on the "terrible two's" , but just wanted to say, you are all amazing, and I also feel like I'm not improving much , I can totally empathise. Oh and welcome to the new posters]

I'm here. Trying to beat the staying up too late reading or watching TV and ignoring the dump the house has degenerated to as an attempt to up my tolerance through not being tired. DT1 is up at 6:20am like clockwork every day. Usually one of the 3 will wake up. Going to bed at 11:30 or later is not helping me!

DD has had the biggest, most epic tantrum/rage ever, ever, ever. I was shocked and upset too. She is definitely having huge anger and frustration issues. I really don't always help. We nearly had a fit over hama beads today (ridiculous- I was doing them with dd while dts asleep, said we'd best finish up as need to get dt2 up and she knocked them all off again but then insisted she wasn't fed up/wanted to start again/ other requests. I so nearly lost the plot- we'd been so close to fecking finishing it- started snapping but did manage to stop, we finished our design, all good but I nearly had an 'adult tantrum'. Great anger links btw)

I'm trying to think of a positive today and want to say I didn't do tea and bedtime Covering a friend's pool class who's sick so a nice change as I'm a sahm now. Plus did a shadow to cover a different group next Monday and it's quite nice to not be 'mum' for a very brief period. I think that helps. Apart from the getting out of the house part which was hard- especially when leaving my mum with the dc as she doesn't really want to do sole childcare, just be a grandma which I agree with but trying to arrange formal childcare for 2 hours is/would be a nightmare. But maybe I should try and carry on with some sporadic work for my own sanity much as I am enjoying Sahm sometimes

Interesting.about the e numbers. I'd never have thought of checking spices! !

I actually think I might be having some sort of breakdown at the moment.

DD cries All. The. Time. From 5am when she wakes up, until midnight when she has some sort of night terror possessed tantrum thing. And every other minute in between. We're falling into a vicious circle at the moment because I am so utterly worn down with it that I often don't have the energy to find yet another way of distracting/ performing/ entertaining. My most basic needs - toilet, drinks, sleep - cannot be met without a screaming backing track. DS still has his own brand of challenging behaviour, most especially when DD is around. Today I have sobbed in front of both of them and I have had enough.

The constant squabbling also drives me to distraction.

I have lots of ways of managing all of this, but it takes a huge amount of energy and effort and a complete disregard for myself and it doesn't feel sustainable but what's the alternative?

I really do try to be positive on these threads, as much to re-boot my own mindset as anything, but right now I am so fucking tired :( sorry to just moan at you.

Oh monkey hugs to you - sounds tough. What is going on with DD? Is it something developmental? Teething? Becoming ill? Is your dh able to give you a break this weekend?

Some advice required here - we still stay with Ds while he falls asleep. Dh is starting to find it really stressful and I wonder if anyone has any ideas for how to get him to go to sleep without one of us in the room?

Thanks to the person (Bertie I think?) who linked to the renegade mom blog - I have enjoyed reading it during the early hours

MrPop I honestly don't know. It could be any of those things, but equally it's been going on for ages. I mentioned it to the HV but she couldn't really help. And in between tantrums, DD is charming and cute and very very funny. But she kind of sets the scene for her tantrums - most of it is 'I want [insert thing she knows I can't allow] ' and so it begins.

Tonight we've had tantrums about getting in the car seat; wanting crisps before tea (she was holding a pot of apple at the time, she loves apple, it's not like I was starving the poor girl); wanting to pull DS's model apart; wanting to stir the pan on the hob (again, she'd already been helping with more toddler friendly prep); wanting a very specific pair of pyjamas; wanting to take them off again; not wanting to go to bed; oh and a hundred other things.

What sort of approach are you looking for with your boy? There was a thread on MN quite a while ago (but it's linked to from time to time), I'll try to search for it.

mrpop sorry no useful advice re sleeping but I'm sure someone will have suggestions.
monkey I'm so sorry you feel so worn down by this at the moment. Are you on your own with them a lot or do you have toddler groups etc for some RL mum chat?

Ooh. Cross post. She sounds feisty!
Actually she sounds a bit like my youngest. Also feisty. From day 1

Clarity. Boundaries of steel. Calm persistence. Are the things which bring (brought) my DD3 down from her position of family tyrant.
Pm me if it'd help.
I know it is difficult if your usual position on here is positive, to not show that positive side.

Gtg. My taxi passenger has arrived. Home James.

anothermonkey my DT1 sounds like that. A prolonged backdrop of screaming followed me taking the last puzzle piece he'd just snatched from DT2 back from him. I stayed calm but just got the other 2 ready to go to and ignored him. 5 never stops but finally I was calm enough to say I'd not let him snatch and help him with his jumper and shoes. But oh the screaming. sometimes I shout or snap at him to shut up. Awful parenting. And exact as you say, because of the lack of energy to use the other methods and reaching the end of my patience as it's all the bloody time. No great suggestions, just some solidarity.