Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

Morning all, can I join?
I have 21mo dd and 9wo ds. Been in and out of hospital with ds since he was born for various reasons, so dd has been 'dumped' repeatedly with no warning at my brothers (who she loves and adores, but still not ideal) and I think I'm now seeing the backlash from it. She's being intentionally horrific challenging, she won't look at me when I call her name if she's doing something wrong, she gives me 'sneaky eyes' where she doesn't move her head to look and see if I'm watching her doing something she knows she shouldn't, she steals and then chews ds' dummy = he cries for another hour.. It has to be said my patience is wearing below thin every day, and I'm screaming at her and probably being a bit rougher than I should..
So, I'm here to be a better parent! Going to go back and read the last few pages, postman pat is currently babysitting

Okay, read back a good few pages (not enough time in my life to read them all!) and I've decided to settle in, all sounds very lovely and non judgey (was slightly worried I'd be torn to bits because of bad parenting but I guess we are all in the same boat!)
I've seen about this descriptive praise instead of good girl or well done? Anyone fancy a quick explanation as to how/ why it's more effective? Normally it's good girl or good listening.. But that's as good as I get!

has everyone else successfully sleep trained their children to not wake until 9? I'm which case I need to get on that bandwagon too.. Dd wakes at 5!........... I've killed the thread

So it's maybe not so much a case of 'scheduling' a meltdown, in the sense of 'hey, there must be some tension in there somewhere, let's piss him off and bring on those tears'! But... it is trying to defer that meltdown just a little longer until I can give him the patience and support he needs to let it all out and maintain our connection, which in turn means that later, usually during our chat time when he's in bed, I get to hear what it was actually all about.

I don't get the authoratitive angle at all but i might change my mind when I've read that blog post... Will come back to that! I do believe that, like in any relationship, limits need to be in place. I have too much to say on this to type now, hope to get chance later!

Welcome pinkandblue, sorry to be brief but welcome

Also, because my thoughts are going to come in quick typo heavy blurts today, I just want to be clear that it's not a huge defence campaign of dr laura that I'm aiming for!! the posts on the previous page have sparked off a massive thought process, with a few lightbulb moments for me, and I want to try to get some of it down if I can.

Hi pinkandblue well we are on post 405 of our second thread and no one has been torn to bits yet, you should be safe here
You are very welcome
In (very) brief descriptive praise is spotting something that your DC has done that you like (eg shown affection to new baby, put own shoes on, found coat when asked to) and you praise them by describing it and showing them you noticed and liked what they did. So instead of "good girl" you might say, "that's great DD1, I asked you to find your shoes and you have brought them both, even though you had to look really hard for the one that was under the sofa. That was good finding." They know then you appreciate the effort they put in and notice what they did. Noticing the good is key (not easy some days!)
Hope you have a good day with your babies

It's phrases like this that feel off about the scheduled meltdown thing:

"When your child is acting ornery, trigger a "scheduled meltdown" at your own convenience. Just set a kind, firm limit and nurture her through the resulting meltdown. "

In the book she does seem to be talking about deliberately pissing them off to "break through anger and release the tears underneath" etc. but perhaps I'm misreading and it's meant more like you describe, Monkey.

DH hasn't got to this bit yet, so I dread to think what'll happen when he does. I've found the Buttons book at last though, yay! It was under the bed...

Hi pinkandblue. :) The other bit of descriptive praise, although I sometimes have to do this through gritted teeth, is finding any glimmer of positive behaviour and focusing on that instead of the negative bits, e.g. instead of

"Oh good grief, it's 8.25 and you've still only got your pants on!" it's "well done, you got your pants on all by yourself - now, can you find the rest of your clothes?!"

With you there on the gritted teeth blue
When about to launch into the "it's 8.25 and you've only....." tirade it helps to stop, breathe out, think about how you can turn it into "you did this bit right, I'd like to see more of that" rather than "you lazy article don't you know we've got to be there by 8.45 and you've only done this?!?!??!"
It doen't come naturally at first and feels 'contrived' but if you get the desired results you'll soon be well motivated to continue and make it a habit. I love the fact that dreamings daughter noticed that she was good at noticing
And I think we'd all agree that none of us do what we would like to do all the time. We are after all human

At this moment in time I'm happy to try anything to change dds attitude, children are so trying!! So praise the good and ignore the bad almost? I can see this working in most situations, but what about when they do something dangerous (running into the road is a good game ATM, as well as climbing into the windowsill) nothing I'm trying seems to be working as she just keeps doing it :(

I like the dc who was noticed mummy was good at noticing

pinkandblue I found it to be a very gradual process and bloody difficult at first. It probably won't solve all issues, there are other techniques which can help with things like road safety (like the teaching/training method we talked about earlier in the thread). But it can be really helpful for just turning some of the negativity around in the first instance.

blue I haven't read the book. I see what you mean in that quote though, it does seem a bit odd.

Where did the teaching / training method come from? And can someone summarize it for me?

Does anyone else have difficulty motivating their dc to get dressed? Ds can dress himself but chooses not to, I also really have to chivvy him along in the mornings. Same with bedtime. Bit anxious about how I will manage with DD as well when dh is back at work next week.

I've finally managed to look at the aha website. So far find it quite good but have mainly been reading newborn stuff - it's very attachmenty which I am quite comfortable with.

Need to unearth my copy of 'how to talk...' it will probably be useful now Ds is 4, I think I initially read it when he was 2.

Hello pinkandblue

anothermonkey sounds like you have made the deferring tantrums strategy work for your Ds; trying to delay an inevitable tantrum makes sense. Not sure about creating a tantrum to release tension, sounds strange. Having said that sometimes Ds loses the plot then seems much calmer thanks to the release. I couldn't make him have a tantrum though!

MrPop this was my earlier post about the teaching/training:

^The most useful thing I've taken from that 'How To Be A Better Parent' book so far is the distinction between teaching and training, and how to apply the two. This has solved some ongoing issues for us, most impressively the Car Seat Saga. This had reached the point at which it could take 30 minutes of pissing around, screaming and a full body wrestle to get anywhere, so something had to be done.

Teaching: first I explained calmly and seriously to DD that when we get into the car, we climb straight into our car seat and an adult will fasten the straps.

Training: I let her try. She climbs into the front seat. I take her out, explain again, we have an 'action replay'. She climbs into the middle of the backseat and looks at me. I tap the car seat. She shouts "STOP IT". I take her out. And so on. It took four attempts the first time, which was still notably better than before. It got down to two attempts. Then we had four attempts and a full body wrestle a couple of days later. Today, we've been in and out of the car 3 times and she has just climbed in EVERY time. Amazing.^

I had so much to say this morning but now I've just lost half of one post, deleted the second because it was a load of waffle, and generally can't seem to articulate what it was I wanted to say

Time for bed........

YYY, it started off as a "If you can't deal with a meltdown empathetically now, postpone dealing with it until the next time they melt down" but then later she chucks it around like you can just poke them until they explode like a spot.

The whole idea of the thread is that it isn't supposed to be that one parenting method/theory is better than another but obviously we all take what we need and offer advice on what we can. I do think though that you can't insist on obedience/compliance and not have some kind of punishment/imposed consequence as an ultimate sanction. It just doesn't work. So if you're wanting to do the whole no punishment thing then you need to let go of the idea of obedience just because and work on the individual values.

Summary of the laundry hamper article but, hang on, I wrote something in another thread the other day so I'll be lazy and C+P

Sorry I got distracted, DH dropped a spider in the bedroom :(

You can re-frame most requests - it's not like you're asking your DC to dance like performing monkeys for your entertainment, generally when we ask them to do stuff, it's for a reason. You ask them to bring their plates through to the kitchen because you want them to be clean and/or take responsibility for things they have used. You ask them to brush their teeth because you want them to take care of their bodies. You ask them to hurry up in the morning because it's important to get to school on time, and you ask them to stop bugging their sibling because you want them to get on with other people.

So all of these could be about obedience and complying with what you've asked, or they could be about tidiness, responsibility, self care, punctuality, respect for others.

Obviously you can't sit down and explain all of this to them in the moment, you just want them to do it, but it does help to know what the aim is because then you can see more easily whether it's an absolute rule/long game/fundamentally, that you want them to do whatever it is for a reason. Gah late and I've lost my point so I'll have to come back to it! Basically it's about finding out what the values/reasoning is, not using that to sit and berate them with but thinking going forward how you can encourage/foster/explain that etc.

I was thinking about tooth brushing, obviously you don't want to let them not brush their teeth ever, because it has long term effects, but if you had an older child (say 4+) you could tell them that you're going to do an experiment. One day, 24 hours, no tooth brushing, don't brush them in the morning, give them loads of sugary foods, sweets, drinks, etc. By the evening they should have a thick enough film of plaque on their teeth that they can actually feel it. If they can't feel it, they can at least scrape it off with a fingernail. For one day (even a sugary day!) it won't harm them to skip tooth brushing and it will give them an idea of what actually they're trying to avoid by brushing teeth! If it's bad enough to make the message then they could brush teeth at bedtime, if not (or they're a bit older maybe) you could leave it until the morning so that they get the full whack of morning breath too.

bertie I too thought of trying to work in a spot analogy to the scheduled meltdown thing
pink and blue with regard to the running into the road and climbing on the window "game" I think you have answered your own question really. To her it may well be a game. You have the challenge of refusing to 'play the game' but also of keeping her safe. At 21 months I wouldn't have thought she has the impulse control or awareness of danger to be let loose around roads, so maybe it would help to focus on encouraging a clear positive choice between "hold mummy's hand or hold the pram when by a road", and if she won't do either get the reins out. ( they all hate those and it might help her choose a safer more acceptable option) what do others think? Am I being old fashioned / draconian with the reins thing? ( I am quite old .... ....relatively speaking)
Yes this thread is not a one theory fixes all place. life would be quite dull if childrens behaviour was that mechanical and predictable. They present us with an infinite variety of challenges lucky us.

Both mine had reins, whether they liked it or not, letsgo. With DS2 we had one of those backpack-reins things, which we found really good - he liked being able to carry stuff around in it, while we liked being able to stop him running off. :) Worked until he learnt how to unfasten it, but that was much older than your DD pinkandblue.

Not at all, reins are a safety precaution :) I didn't use them because DS would just sit down in the middle of the pavement but I just took a buggy everywhere and put him in if he wasn't walking safely enough for me.

Could you put some big furniture in front of the window or would that make it worse? If the windowsill is safe e.g. locked window, double glazed, and she's never unsupervised in that room I'd probably leave her to it and hope the novelty wore off! It's a worry if it's a safety issue, though.

I think that you can't just take away shouting and replace it with nothing :) You need a plan for what to do when (or preferably before) you feel like shouting.

You know I've just done something I said I'd never do - I read the amazon preview of 123 magic and actually found that the 123 principle is well laid out and very good. (You can get the whole idea of what to do by reading the preview). I still disagree strongly with a lot of stuff it says, and I wouldn't use it for everything they suggest using it for, but for avoiding parental tantrums, and situations I might use a time out for anyway, it does sound pretty good actually

I'm also reading a book, for myself, but might be interesting to anyone with children who seem sensitive to noise, sensation, clothing etc. It's called Too Loud, Too Tight, Too Fast Too Bright and it's about being "sensory defensive" which I'm really identifying with and finding helpful. I'm hoping it might help me cope with general life stuff a bit better.

bertie I think that why I keep failing at not shouting- because I think I'll walk away/ make a silly noise to distract myself/ whatever but don't focus or plan enough to do the alternative so shout so feel guilty- and the circle continues.

I took dc to a colleague's retirement lunch today and a couple of people told me they were a credit to me didn't see their worse behaviour but it was a surprise to hear that. I think I focus on the negative too much. They did all tell me I have my hands full though which really annoys me purely because I hear it so much... It is true of course, but I have noticed Oh and car parks remain my nemesis. lost dt2 while getting dt1 out- turn around and they're off. I may bring out the backpacks again too but mine hate them.

Anyway, I'm. off on.a tangent. DD (who appears to be very perceptive) told me.today we definitely shout in this house again. So the homework I'm going to.set myself again is read the "peaceful parent happy kids" book again to get back on track and male a . firm plan on how to avoid shouting and stick to it Funnily enough the stressful situations where both boys are howling I can handle calmly but I shouted loudly at yea as the third drink got knocked over all over clothes and floor because dc messing about not eating. The little things get to me most. It's mealtimes and fighting mainly. and don't mention bedtime
Mine are allowed to sit and climb on windowsills as there's a sofa below. I tell them if they've bouncing to do bounce on the floor. They don't listen. I used to end up snapping. now I set up the big back sofa cushions on the floor and get them to leap off and do a 'long jump'. Or into beanbags. And we set up indoor obstacle courses since the rain has started. I bring in a bench from.the porch they sit on to put shoes on when it's not piled with coats and general crap and get them them to either wriggle under it as part of the course or climb on it and hurl themselves into a beanbag. So indoor athletics aren't exactly discouraged here

dreaming and MoreSnow it's so hard to control reactions sometimes. I'm trying to give myself credit for getting better at this, but there's no doubt that I do sometimes just end up throwing a tantrum of my own.

I do find that through this process I've been concentrating on DS and if I do get cross with him now, it's generally for good reason. But my current madness triggers are a) being woken up by children who are being demanding and whiny for no good reason before 6am (I'm just not a morning person) and b) DD's ongoing tantrums over absolutely f*ing EVERYTHING. This is making my head throb at the moment. It's worse because she's a bit under the weather at the moment and I'm keeping that in mind but it really is tough.

The business of 'obedience' has been on my mind a lot since reading that blog post, bertie. My thoughts below aren't aimed at you or the blog, they're just a stream of thought which was sparked by reading it...

I'm completely on board with the idea that bringing up kids who do what they are told only out of a fear of consequence (from an authority figure) is generally most likely to bring up children who grow up to rebel and be less sure of their own minds.

BUT. My children don't yet understand empathy. It can take until their teens to properly develop this skill. DS at 5 is just beginning to get a sense of correlation between his behaviour towards others and their behaviour towards him. You can see the tick-tick-lightbulb thing going on when we talk about it afterwards, but it's not yet ingrained enough to actually impact on his behaviour.

Without structure and limits he pings around like one of those insanely bouncy balls, he really does need to know that everything is as it should be in his world and he'll push and push and push those boundaries until he is sure they are still solid. Daily.

So I aim now for non-verbal cues, humour, support, descriptive praise, logical consequences. But sometimes, I need to put my foot down and stomp those boundaries firmly back in place. Does that mean I expect him to obey me? To some extent, yes. In an adult relationship, you both have full responsibility, you both have a shared agenda, if DH decides he's won't be getting dressed or going to work because he's too busy building a spaceship out of lego it's not really my problem. DS doesn't yet have the necessary sense of responsibility, concept of time, willingness to share an agenda (unless I feel like skipping work and sharing the lego, that would be fine). So, at this age and in our household at least, there has to be a clear sense that the adults are 'in charge'.

But, reading the comments on here about the aha site, I then started thinking... Authoritarian is no longer the way to go. For good reason. But where then, in that huge grey authoritative area between permissive and authoritarian, do 'manipulative' and 'passive aggressive' fall?

(Discuss )

Something I have been trying to do again as part of this thought process is to cut right back on the number of instructions or demands I give. I do give far more than I realise, even when it's completely unneccessary (saying 'come on' when I know they'll follow me anyway, for example).

I'm trying to find ways of getting stuff done without making demands. Oh and 'inviting' them to tidy up ('I'm going to tidy these crayons away, does anyone want to help me?" has had a surprisingly high success rate.

On the 123 Magic, the page about 'counting' for 'stop' activities (pg 13) is missing - does anyone know how that works?!

On the 123 magic *preview