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Behaviour/development

Talk to others about child development and behaviour stages here. You can find more information on our development calendar.

Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

964 replies

BertieBotts · 31/08/2014 09:56

Terrible title sorry Grin Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework Wink (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
rhetorician · 06/10/2014 20:36

mrpop hello and welcome. And congratulations on your dd. I can see how difficult your situation is, and am deeply sorry to hear about your ds2. You are doing so brilliantly to be thinking so much about the impact on your ds1 - which means that he will be fine. Does he remember his brother? Such a hard thing to understand for him (well impossible for anyone, but you know what I mean).

We have had pretty good day: the chicken ban is a relief to all, really, and DD1 did go down at bedtime and managed fairly well. She did her homework and says reading is easier now (yay!), and helped me cook dinner (chopped mushrooms, added ingredients, rolled out pastry), and then made her own jam turnovers and rolls. Delish! Bedtime better too - combination of being dark and telling them stories, but only if they are lying down in bed.

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 06/10/2014 21:00

Full day solo parenting and it's gone pretty well. Bit irritated and snapped a couple of times but overall not epically bad. I didn't handle some snatching and meaness between the dts well this morning by just removing the squabbled over item and putting them down on the floor (they'd been sat on kitchen counter while I washed up some breakfast things). They both screamed the house down. I just needed to go and brush my teeth and calm down before I could speak to them. probably not ideal for them and I guess I didn't give a warning- though it was not the first time we had discussed turn taking and waiting and not snatching this morning... Maybe I should downgrade my description of the day?! biggest issue was tiredness as between them i was up 6 times in the night. tiredne colours everything for me. I did also keep them busy. Took all 3 to playgroup. Lunch. Dts persuaded to have a 30 minute nap. Had to get them up straight into the car to go for DD's swimming lesson. Then took them to the playground. Then the coop to buy some tea. All ate together and into the garden for a play before bathtime. I'm knackered but as dh left home at 7:45am and isn't back yet at nearly 9pm I doubt there'll be any sympathy Grin

mrpop congratulations on the birth of your DD. I can't imagine how awful the loss of your ds2 is. I hope you've got some.good rl support. Do you have a good sling at the ready for when your dh is back at work to try and free up your hands a bit?! Accepting them as them is quite hard as overall it's hard not to want a child who mostly is helpful and kind, does the things they're asked when asked (nothing unreasonable I don't think- like put your shoes on please! )

I should say too that overall my DD likes to please, is sociable and confident and outgoing and lovely. its just she wants more time and attention than I can give with the Dts. I feel bad. I desperately want to do more with her in this, her last year before school. I just don't have any opportunity! so she acts up for attention and I get cross and it's a vicious circle. which I'm working on breaking!

MoreSnowPlease · 06/10/2014 21:20

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

mandbaby · 07/10/2014 06:22

Moresnow Do you keep a diary? If not, it might be worth starting one. Keep a log of what he eats, how tired you are, how much connection you make. Hopefully you might start to see a link between these things and what his behaviour was like on those days.

Mrpop congratulations on the birth of DD. (Another one here posting while doing a nightfeed!) It is hard with a newborn as there's so much more of a need to prioritise, which a four year old won't understand nor appreciate. And I'm so, so sorry to hear about the loss of your DS2. I can't even begin to imagine how you cope with something like that.

Sorry for short post. May try again later.

MrPop · 07/10/2014 08:12

Hello again and thanks for the welcome and kind comments.

moresnow ds1 has so far been ok with DD - no more tantrums but it will be interesting to see how he is next week when dh is back at work. At the moment he is enjoying all the one to one time with dh.

rhet sounds like you and the DDs had a good day. Good call to ban contact with the chickens if it was proving too stressful for DD1.

DS1 does remember DS2 and talks of him often which is very sweet. I am glad their bond has persisted.

mandbaby congrats on your DD! Did you find it funny having a girl after boys? I did initially. How are your boys reacting to the new addition?

A few things I've picked up from this thread - someone (can't remember who, sorry) said when you ask a question, wait 10 seconds for an answer. This works well with Ds who often gives the impression of not listening.

I also want to reduce my screen time when Ds is around.

Can't scroll back to my message but I meant to add, dreaming I am in awe of your ability to manage 3 young dc on 6 wake ups a night.

PlasticCoat · 07/10/2014 10:01

MrPop welcome to the thread (yay I'm no longer the newest newbie!), congratulations on your dd & I'm so so sorry to hear about your ds. I hope you're getting lots of Rl support, I can't begin to understand how you must feel Sad. Coping with that plus a 4 yo and newborn must be so stressful so please rant to us if you need to Flowers

Dreaming I'm also in awe of your ability to cope with anything on 6 wake ups in a night! I'd be hard pushed to string a sentence together.

AnotherMonkey you need a Brew or Wine to get through the 4yo tantrums stage!! I remember it well

Rhet the chicken ban sounds like a good call

Moresnow a food etc diary as suggested by mandbaby sounds like a great idea for you. You must be superwoman to be feeding your ds1 and pumping to feed ds2 too

Plastic house is still calm and tranquil!!!! I cannot believe that this time last week I was in tears most days, ready to send ds to boarding school (or borstal, lol!!) but he is being helpful, getting ready for school etc, not bickering too much with dd... I think that aliens may have stolen the real ds and replaced him with a stepford son Grin. Can this really be down to descriptive praise? I may become evangelical about it if this keeps up....

I hope this doesn't come across as smug, I don't want to speak too soon in case it's just a fluke but wanted to let you all know that maybe this technique works & works very quickly even on an older child

campingfilth · 07/10/2014 11:18

Just found this can I join. I have had a terrible time with my very violent 4 year old, had to lock myself in bedroom to get away from him etc, house full of shouting/screaming/anger and upset bloody awful.

However, after recommendations from MN i bought 'How to Talk so Children Listen' and what a massive improvement. I started reading it at the same time I started some family therapy as I was at my wits end. I have stopped the family therapy sessions as I feel the book has made such a difference plus it was costing me loads and we hadn't got to the stage of having DS together in it.

Anyway, I used to get hit every day, sometimes more than that, spat at and punched in the face, kicked etc. I have been kicked once in 3 weeks...once!!! I am over the moon with that. The techniques are actually simple and although I am still working at them being more natural I am trying my hardest. Not perfect and still shouting every now and then but our home life is so much better.

My stress levels are lower, my self esteem is better as I don't feel so much of an utter failure at parenting. I had got to the point were I thought my DS would be better off being looked after by someone else, anyone else.

The therapist seemed to think he has anxiety/anger issues over his birth which was very traumatic and that he worries something may happen to me on an unconscious level plus anger over his twat of a father walking out when he was 3 weeks off his 2nd birthday. Twat has chosen not to be in DS and the break up was very hostile and not one that I dealt with well. Should have listened to MN's more there but you live and learn.

If anyone has any suggestions on how to deal with making my DS feel more safe so to speak then please tell me. Or any experience of helping kids over traumatic births I'd be most grateful.

AnotherMonkey · 07/10/2014 14:37

Hi campingfilth that sounds so tough. Have you come across the aha parenting site? (Sorry no link but a quick google will do it). I subscribe to their emails and over time this has really, really helped me with DS's behaviour who for different reasons also gets angry fast and needs clear limits but also a lot of empathy and love.

Sorry for quick reply, on a quick breather at work!!

Letsgoforawalk · 07/10/2014 19:58

Hi all.
Welcome mrpop and campingfilth ( I think Id like to know your nickname origins!)
Mrpop it must be an emotional minefield for you at the mo, with grief for your recent loss of DS2 and joy at your new daughter and everything intermingling. A poignant time. I'm glad you are finding the 10 second rule useful, it was a gem from a speech therapist many years ago.
I think we all find what dreaming can achieve on too little sleep is farly awesome on a daily basis. Looking at what ctc has done, dreaming would an au pair or 'mothers help' type person be within your reach financially?
or kerching sudden brainwave!!!!
When my youngest was born the HV arranged for a nursery nurse student to have a family placement with us. If there is a college near you that might be a (free) way to get an extra pair of hands a few hours a week. Could be an option for mandbabe too. A thought anyway....
camping what a difference you have made! Well done for making changes. No advice about the birth trauma or other stuff only to say that we all have the capacity for change, your son is very young and the relatively simple changes you have made have already made a massive difference. So maybe it was just a case of halting a circle of frustration. I hops the changes last. There is lots of help out there.
Sorry for typos. Posting on phone with fat fingers. Confused
We ok here but now I need to devote some energy to halting screen time for tonight. Theirs and mine
Smile

campingfilth · 07/10/2014 20:20

I just wrote a long post in reply to Letsgoforawalk and AnotherMonkey and then it flipped to twitter...that I'm not even on...and lost it all.

I am too tired to rewrite.

I have had another good day with DS, using the techniques and preventing aggression lots more talking. Beginning to slowly enjoy this parenting lark at last.

MrPop · 07/10/2014 20:50

camping welcome - when I read your post I thought of cranial osteopathy which is used to help with birth trauma. It is associated with babies but can be done at any age I think.

campingfilth · 07/10/2014 22:06

Hi mrpop I have just done a quick google and not sure that it would help as DS was delivered by emergency c-section so didn't travel down the birth canal. It was the trauma that I suffered that had a knock on effect on DS. i.e. i ended up in ITU was in hospital for 2 weeks etc. I can't seem to find any information about how that causes anger/anxiety in children though.

I will try and look more tomorrow about cranial therapy as too tired now.

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 07/10/2014 22:28

I wonder if today's Aha! parenting email would help with managing some of his anger too campingfilth?
here

Yesterday DD said to me "thank you mummy for finding my ring. You're very good at noticing things" Grin Descriptive praise back at ya! At least I know she does hear it now even if it's not always acknowledged. Nearly 4 and 1 month and probably better at it than me Wink

I do find her meltdowns hard though as they're always at such inconvenient times.... And Laura Markham always bangs on about these healing tears- we never seem to get to them?!?! I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but DD is more likely to go from raging to cross to calm with me (if I haven't lost it and asked her to calm down elsewhere- feeling guilty about that) without these healing tears, just a few cross ones. Hmm

MoreSnowPlease · 07/10/2014 23:39

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Withdrawn at poster's request

BlueEyeshadow · 08/10/2014 10:19

Have been lurking for a few days but not had time to post.

Hi to MrPop and Camping. Sounds like you both have such a lot to deal with.

DS2 was being challenging this morning, but managed to treat it as a game and not get angry. Last night was awkward though. DH is convinced that none of the strategies in the books will work for our kids, but I think they will if we persist. It's hard though, and then he says my standards are too high! I think his standards are too high sometimes, but different ones... I don't want to get into an argument about it though. He really hates Dr Laura - reckons she's smug and passive aggressive!

DreamingOfAFullNightsSleep · 08/10/2014 13:32

I really hate the way she signs off as "Dr Laura" . Either go formal and call yourself Dr Markham or stay low key and sign off as Laura. that does my head in every time I read it Wink

I am so unable to control my irritability. lunch time.has been me being snappy and short just because I let everything get too late and then was stressing boys weren't in bed and knock on effect for the afternoon etc. ffs. chill the fu*k out woman!!!!!

campingfilth · 08/10/2014 13:58

Hello back. Yes I'm not sure about the cranial therapy and seeing as I am skint will give it a miss for now but will certainly look more into it in case everything goes wobbly again.

I've read a bit ion the Aha website and I too get irritated by the Dr Laura as well dreaming. I do think she talks a lot of sense but sometimes the techniques are hard when your child is very extreme in their behaviour or your tired/stressed etc. Its hard to break that downward spiral sometimes and I know I find it difficult even though I know it would make things calmer.

I get very irritable when its PMT time, everything winds me up and I have no patience. This clearly has a knock on effect on DS who picks up in my irritability as I just want to be left alone with my stroppy mood and headache. This is where having a partner would make life easier as at least they would be able to take them out or do something to give me a break. Unfortunately I'd rather drill my own eyeballs out than let another man in my life right now Grin

dreaming thats lovely that your daughter is able to praise you as well. I am rubbish at being descriptive in all areas of life so struggle with this and there is sometimes a big pause in the middle of my praising as I try and find the right word. I'm sure DS thinks I'm mad sometimes.

moresnow how is your DS? hope he is feeling better.

BertieBotts · 08/10/2014 14:16

Haha, it's very "Hi evvvrybody, I'm Doctor Nick!" isn't it? Grin

I think there was an article somewhere about "my child doesn't cry, he just gets angry" on that site. Wonder if that is helpful. I'm finding her stuff more hit and miss these days. Sometimes it's good, often it's very vague, and I'm finding it quite manipulative?? I don't know if anyone else is getting that idea from it.

Argh having a bit of a thing with DH today. He has to take DS in early on Wednesdays, they're supposed to leave the house at 7.20. DS is like me and takes a while to wake up in the mornings, but this morning I'd asked him to give him breakfast. Instead of starting earlier, say about 6.30, which is what I would have done (it's only once a week!) he just dragged him out of bed at 7 and then shouted at him continuously, kept threatening vague stuff and going on a whole power trip, it's weird, he's not normally like this but occasionally it comes out? It really upsets me/pisses me off. In the end he told DS "I will punish you later" which I just think is totally out of order. DS had/has no idea what he's meant to have done (I don't even know what he's meant to have done except perhaps be slow and say "no" to something, which DH has suddenly decided is a massive problem and he needs to nip in the bud.) Aaaargh! So DH is all "I'd like to see you get up at 6.30 to get him ready!" and I would, except I don't need to be at work that early and I don't want to arrive there with nothing to do. Hmm. Maybe I will tomorrow just to make the point! Hope he enjoys waking up at 6.10 when my alarm goes off Grin

This comes after a bit of a realisation. Sometimes when I'm half asleep (see, I understand DS' POV here Wink) or just generally not on top of stuff I react to annoying repetitive misbehaviour by shouting and generally whining at DS, sometimes pushing him away physically :( Obviously I'm not really thinking this through at the time, but somewhere there's the thought that my actions towards him aren't very nice/pleasant and so he will make the connection that doing this annoying behaviour = me doing the not very nice stuff, but it doesn't work. So my realisation was that it's not actually very clear. If I physically removed him or held his hands or even just made eye contact and said "Stop doing that now" in a firm voice, that would be more directly impacting on what he's actually doing. Whereas me getting whiny/shouty/pushy probably seems quite random and just a thing that Mummy does sometimes.

So I think it's the same as shouting. Shouting doesn't really work as a punishment/deterrent, maybe in the past when people did more physical discipline then yeah they'd probably shout/lecture at the same time. (Totally guessing here!) and the only other situation I can think of is in a school where one teacher is always known for "bollocking" students (ie, you get them in a room and basically shout at them). But either way it's not a very nice thing? I know the whole point of a punishment is that it's a deterrent, something not nice. But I think when it's happening more as a graduation from talking that even if we're telling them about what it is, they don't actually make that clear connection, it's just a "thing adults do" or they correctly identify that we're getting stressed but don't make the connection that it's their behaviour which is the stress cause! Typical!

OP posts:
AnotherMonkey · 08/10/2014 20:56

Oh no poor Dr Laura!! Grin

I do find myself warning DH to look beyond the annoying writing style if I'm showing him one of her blog posts and I often find that it's fantastic if you're one-on-one but less so with more children to deal with. However, I do find that a lot of it helps here! Things like... Understanding tantrums / angry behaviour and setting clear limits while empathising; and not focusing on punishing the behaviour resulting from the negative emotion. For example, instead of putting DS into time out for hitting, I'll tell him firmly that we don't do that, then get back to finding the root of the problem and helping him to fix it. It's genuinely turned things around here.

campingfilth if it's any consolation, having DH around during my PMT madness is no help, it's just another person to add to my list of annoying people (the person right at the top of that list is myself).

AnotherMonkey · 08/10/2014 20:58

Oh bertie I meant to ask - what are you finding manipulative? I tend to take all this stuff with a pinch of salt anyway but hadn't picked up on that so really interested to hear that perspective.

BertieBotts · 08/10/2014 21:35

Well after my long rant this morning it turned out DH was winding me up Blush So I spent a whole afternoon feeling nauseous, anxious, pissed off for no reason at all :( Angry

The manipulative thing is something I started to notice, the blog is obviously coming from an American perspective, US parenting is traditionally much more centred around authoritarianism (and I can never remember which is the "nice" one but I mean the super strict one) with a lot of emphasis on compliance/obedience, defiance/disobedience and punishment being a big thing. Some stuff I've picked up from talking to normal parents (being abroad) - one mum from California (so a pretty liberal state!) made a joke about "taking the fear out of the wooden spoon!" and I didn't get it for ages until I realised that she meant that a 5/6 year old of this generation would have an innate knowledge that a wooden spoon is a discipline instrument. I was quite shocked by that. Likewise, a friend told me that lifeguards at the pool she went to as a child would haul a misbehaving child out of the water and make them sit on a bench for 5 minutes. I couldn't imagine that happening in Britain.

Also, (and this is spreading into online stuff which can be more extreme) notice how they talk about "a spanking" meaning more of a prolonged thing whereas in Britain it'd have been "a smack" or "a slap". Over 90% of US parents have smacked according to a recent survey whereas it's much lower here - I don't know exact figures, think it's over 50% still but nowhere near as high as the US. Historically I think British parenting has been more "benign neglect" with perhaps a swipe at the legs or a bit of a telling off if you'd been really stupid, or getting sent to your room for backchat, but not things like punishing for bad grades, even things like time out and grounding are fairly new imports. I remember seeing "time out" referred to on The Rugrats and finding it an odd thing, normal punishments seemed to be getting sent to room/sit on stairs, sent to bed early, having a toy taken off you, and definitely not that structured or with a special formula about X minutes per age etc.

Sooooo... to appease that she does still talk about defiance a lot and although she's talking about the very very important other things like emotional acceptance, looking at the root of the problem, setting limits without threats/punishment, better communication, etc, all of that good, useful stuff, she's still wanting to appeal to a group of parents who judge behaviour on how compliant their child is. So I find that she's often using language which supports this point of view and keeps promising vaguely more co-operation and compliance as you improve connection, communication and empathy with your child, which is true! It does help. But for me she's missing out on the very first and most vital point which is that obedience is totally irrelevant and unnecessary because when you parent like this, you're looking to instil values, not obedience.

www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2014/09/obedience-empathy-and-the-laundry-hamper.html
This is written by an ex Christian fundamentalist who now follows a more empathetic, gentle parenting style and explains the difference extremely well. This is part of what I was getting upset at DH about earlier too.

Plus I'm not sure I'm on board with the scheduled meltdown thing. It's a bit, I don't know, THAT feels manipulative. It feels like she's built up this idea "Oh I can handle my child's emotions and it is so important", it feels false to me to artificially provoke a situation which I know will upset my child just so he can get his hurt feelings out. I mean yes she says you should "schedule" the meltdown by imposing a limit, which you'd probably be doing anyway. Perhaps it's the way it's worded!

OP posts:
BlueEyeshadow · 08/10/2014 22:50

Yes, I was a bit Hmm about the scheduled meltdown thing too. I do think that most of her ideas are sound, but DH finds it all pie in the sky.

I really need to locate my copy of the Buttons book - it fits together so much with the wellbeing course I'm doing at the moment, really helping me to understand the jangle of emotions, standards and self-imposed rules I'm battling against/trying to impose on the boys.

Interesting all that about obedience etc, Bertie. One of my many conflicts is a battle between "children need to do what they're told", which is how I was brought up, and not actually believing that intellectually. No wonder I get confused! I guess the next step is working on not taking all this confusion out on the boys when I feel threatened...

Letsgoforawalk · 08/10/2014 23:52

I think the scheduled meltdown sort of makes sense, but I don't recognise the deliberate generation of a meltdown in the way "Dr Laura" (yes, most irritating way to name yourself!) describes.
It can be like summer rain after a heavy stifling day though when the tears fall.
if DD3 is "going off on one" (unreasonable, shouty, refusal to do what she needs to do, furious sulking and violent explosions of temper) in the face of calm persistence by me, eventually, if I manage to persist with the calm persistence, I might get a tearful contrite and loving DD3 who will, after the tears, talk about what has gone on, apologise and discuss rationally how future furies can be avoided. This is much more effective at moving things along than allowing her to fester furiously in her room and not actually release whatever emotion/ anxiety/ fear it is that is there. It isn't a deliberate policy though, and not every temper episode warrants tears and contrition, sometimes it is right to just let her retreat to her room and "cool off" and once she has cooled off we move on and don't look back. Other times if damage has been done then she has to make amends or apologise for injury or damaged stuff.

Sheesh, puberty hasn't even hit yet, that's approaching like a steam train. I must gird my loins for the storms ahead..........
However...
Thanks to a few good books and this wonderful thread I don't feel overwhelmed by any of it currently. There is a path through. It hasn't always felt like that.
Good nights to anyone burning the nearly midnight oil Smile I'm for bed now
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

BertieBotts · 09/10/2014 06:05

No, I do know what you mean about the way they calm down afterwards which is nice, and I do agree that if you're having a spate of crazy/amgry/bad behaviour then it's a good idea to mentally prepare yourself for the meltdown which is coming and don't particularly try to avoid it as you recognise it is a necessary, even helpful thing. It's just in more recent articles she throws it in there so casually, and I suppose I object to the wording as well - as though you can just slot meeting your child's emotional needs ss easily as planning a coffee date with a friend or a work meeting. It's probably again just that it's aimed at a different readership than me.

OP posts:
AnotherMonkey · 09/10/2014 07:13

Yes, like letsgo I kind of 'get' the scheduled meltdown thing without using it in a manipulative way. In our case, for example, there are days when I pick DS up from school when I know we're going to have trouble. I try really hard to make sure that I have snacks/drinks/something to do in the car as I know that this will postpone the inevitable and in the car I can't hug him or make eye contact, I just end up getting stressed too. However, when we get home, if he needs to let it all out because I passed him the wrong cup, I find it's better out than in. But I'm very aware that I'm crap at verbalising my own anger/frustration in an effective way (I'm more likely to splutter and cry; or say nothing but have angry conversations in own head for the next few years days Blush ) and if like to give my two the opp to learn how to express that anger.

Have to go, will be back, more to say on all that...!!