Come and be a better parent in the trenches! Thread 2

[BertieBotts]

Terrible title sorry Next time we'll start the discussion at 900 posts, OK?

Originally started by AnotherMonkey, we are trying to improve our parenting which may include less shouting (www.theorangerhino.com) and positive boundary setting (www.ahaparenting.com), or any other goal you want. If you want to be more authoritative that's a great cause too. No judging of parenting styles allowed, honest critique OK. There is occasionally homework (but really, honest, we're nice and don't care if you want to skip past that bit)

Dumping of emotions/ranting after a bad day also acceptable. The saying "in the trenches" refers mainly to having 2+ under 5 but really any stage which is repetitive, challenging, soul destroying about parenting.

Books recommended so far:
How To Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk
When Your Kids Push Your Buttons
The Happiness Project
Calmer Easier Happier Parenting
The Explosive Child
The Highly Sensitive Child

Please post a little intro/reminder just with your DCs ages/stages and any extra challenges - a couple of us have relocated abroad, that kind of thing.

Have you all seen this by the way:

www.renegademothering.com/2014/09/17/humans-wondering-im-always-late/

It made me properly laugh, I love her posts.

had (mostly) a good day with a couple of outbursts (over the fucking chickens, yet again) - she played well on the road with other kids (all younger than her though) was nice to her sister (within reasonable sibling limits!) and really tried hard with some things. But it's bloody uphill sometimes

Thanks for that Monkey

Hope your DC are on the mend, MoreSnow

DS2 startled me this morning by saying "this has been a nice morning- nobody's fighting." I thought it was much the same as ever myself! I also totally don't know how to handle him lying down in the middle of the floor and point-blank refusing to do any tidying up because he's "too tired" and pretending to go to sleep when challenged.

Did get DH to start reading the Calm Parents book, but she nearly lost him when she proposed getting up at 6 for a walk by herself as a way of recharging!! Hopefully he'll persevere with it...

blueEyeshadow how old is your DS. DD1 (5 going on 6) does this sometimes. Infuriating.

He's just turned 5, rhetorician.

I love renegade mothering :)

I'm struggling again. I am finding it so hard to enjoy time with DS again. He pushes my buttons and I just can't seem to reframe what he's doing or see it in a different way. The guilt is getting to me so much - I can't read things on facebook where people call their children "a blessing" or talk about how much they love them. Even when people talk about how stressful they find parenting or their children they always end it by saying it's worth it or they love them so much or some other positive spin and I just find so often I can't. I have been trying to write down one thing that I enjoyed about DS every day, and most days the only one thing I can write is something which lasted for about 5 or 10 minutes and quite often I think "That was fun but..." - I only get a moment where I actually think "I love this and I would choose this activity/interaction/feeling over something else" about once or twice a week.

I think I just need to accept that our relationship is damaged (although I don't think he sees it that way, which is good, but makes me feel like I am failing, like at least if it was actually damaged on both sides I'd have a project, something I can fix) and try to work on it and accept that it is going to be more tedious than fun until I get to a later point. But I just find that every time I try to reach out and make a connection he spoils it by being whiny, doing that annoying hyper thing, going over the top, or just doesn't want to. And then when he's trying to engage me in something or get my attention he does it in the most irritating way that I can't even deal with. Like today he wanted me to come out for a walk with him and DH and instead of just asking me, he found some socks, started dancing around with them and jumping around, which is so annoying, I mean stand still! (I know I shouldn't be annoyed by this because it's just excited kid behaviour) Then he shoves the socks under my nose and demands "Put my socks on for me". So I say no, put them on yourself, here, I'll fold them for you. He gets pissy about the fact I suggested folding them (easy way to put on socks) and instead continues to insist I put them on and shove them into my face, running on the spot and generally talking in shouting and elongated vowels.

I did go on the walk, I didn't put the socks on. I hate how easily irritated I get. It's not his fault :( And yet I can't help but react to it. Even if I know at the time that he's just trying to make me pay attention to him.

Anyway I need to go to bed for point #1 of my first aid thing - trying to keep my own energy levels up. So sorry for dumping and running.

bertie this is a good place for dumping, I hope things start to improve

I've been lurking lately, wanting to post but want to reply to people but don't have the energy so end up not. Have been having another dark night of the soul type time, probably to do with DS having an assessment booked in for a fortnight away. He's made so much progress and I enjoy him so much more, but there are still things that raise flags for us and are still hard. I know a diagnosis isn't the end of the world and we haven't even got one yet. I'm fairly sure we will though and I'm processing that really, preparing for whatever feedback we might get!

rhet your journey has been resonating with me lately because of all of this.

Whoops have to go unexpectedly! Will reply more to people later, sorry.

Anothermonkey Both of my boys were late: DS1 was 12 days late (although only 5 days late by my reckoning) and DS2 was 4 days late. I'm absolutely petrified at the moment and I'm driving DH nuts. I'm terrified of the pain, I'm terrified I wont cope with three under 5s, I'm terrified of getting PND, I'm terrified of everything. I suppose it's all normal, right??? The other evening whilst trying to get organised, I found a box full of very young baby toys (rattles, fabric books, etc) and just felt completely overwhelmed by it all: it was like all this time I'd been in denial that it wasn't really happening and the realisation suddenly hit me. DH thinks I'm being stupid and that I will cope just fine, but that's easy for Mr MyLifeWillHardlyChange to say isn't it?

Bertie I really can relate to so much of what you say. Some days (probably most days actually) I feel much the same: I
feel an incredible amount of guilt at how much I dislike my boys sometimes, how irritable I am with them, how much their little "isms" and age related traits annoy me. And then you pop onto facebook and read the status of someone who goes on about how amazing their little ones are and what an honour it is to be a mummy and I just want to puke. I think "when will I feel like that?". And I suppose I do - quite a lot. But on bad days it's hard to forget all the good stuff and the good feelings and the negative ones take over.

Do you think you could benefit from some sort of counseling? Have you spoken to your GP? Did you suffer from PND at all? Could this still be the tail-end of that?

As I said, I often feel like you've described, but I generally just put it down to hormones and a lack of someone to confide in (thank God for this thread!) to get things off my chest. And then along comes a day when I count my lucky stars and realise how good life is.

Going back to the bragging mumsy types - I bet they're just as "lost" and as frustrated as WE are - they just bullshit about their lives on facebooks to receive a few "likes".

does anyone have any ideas on how to improve bedtime? we put ours to bed at the same time - tonight we left the room at 7.35, and here we are nearly an hour later and they are both still awake! they have pjs, story, teeth, then lights out. They are allowed to play quietly for about 10 minutes, they are also allowed to get up to go to the toilet. I can't believe that they are not tired, given that they get up at 7am every morning. And I think that DD1 for sure would behave better if only she would stop fiddling about and go to sleep at a reasonable time

anothermonkey no, I haven't. I'll add it to the hit list. Today, after an incredibly rare sleep through by all 3 dc last night (was up 5 flipping times the night before) I was so different. I know this now means I have to curtail my beloved evening reading in bed til way too late and make every effort to be more rested seeing as I can't make the dc sleep. I did snap at bedtime at the dts. I'd put do in bed. No dh, he won't be home til 10pm. He left at 7:40am. They were snapping a bedside light on and off and on again and I saw red and said really crossly "RIGHT, I'm not doing wither of your talks ( their daily rundown and what we enjoyed together I do with each) if that light doesn't go off and stay off IMMEDIATELY! " I had got the dc on board with the orange rhino challenge and hear dd pipe up "orange rhino mummy! " Doh. So close and yet so far.

Today I enjoyed taking them to a playgroup this morning as I got my only 5 minutes (literally!) adult company and chat- does that count?! they mostly insist mummy to play in these situations but we did have a good play all together for a good 10 minutes with no arguing (miracle) . This afternoon I did enjoy taking them to a less local playground which we had to ourselves, having to be a troll to their Billy goats gruff yet again and a quick bike/stones in river. Definitely snatches. I'm having no luck with help with tidying atm. Multiple meltdowns from the dts today and some rude behaviour from dd. Apart from choosing to ignore dt1 on the floor for a good few minutes though he nearly vomited from crying as dt2 was also sobbing it kind of went ok with how I handled it- and I just find 2 tantruming distraught 2 year olds hard to handle full stop. Solo stint nearly over. Think all bar one asleep. I'm now feeling guilty as dt1 has Ben begging for a back stroke which I refused. He sometimes has one at bedtime when I have a chat with him but didn't ask tonight til 5 minutes into settling down time.so I said no as I we have worked so hard to help him learnt to fall asleep independently I don't want to take backward steps and go back in repeatedly. I do feel mean now. If it were either of the others I'd have done it but I've not just spent £345 and 4 months of my life working on their sleep Do most people 'give in' to little things like this mostly?

rhetorician and blue (I think, sorry if I've misremembered) facing a possible diagnosis must be tough. I do think sometimes it can be very helpful in getting the right kind of help at school and understanding from people with how to help and what to expect. Kind of.

bertie Letting the little things go is really hard. My dad always says 'don't sweat the small stuff' . I totally agree but it's easier said than done. DD does this annoying getting in their face thing to her brothers. It instantly winds them up and it instantly irritates me. From reading this thread it seems so common yo do these kind of annoying little things. DD regularly refuses to put on or take off her own shoes. I have only just realised reading your post I mostly go with it and do it Sometimes if she's taking the piss just to be the one in charge I won't but if she's tired and cross I just do it. hmm. Another rod for my own back?! And I really have to try to remember and focus on the good bits not the cross end of the day, the awful both boys distraught all the time tea was cooking etc etc. I do a lot of coping/struggling. Even on bikes today dt1 suddenly refused to ride and demanded carrying so I ended up carrying him on my shoulders, my rucksack with nappies, drinks etc, his bike and trying to keep up with the other 2 already way ahead. With 2 others off ahead i cant afford to stop and have a long discussion i know I'd lose. I cant make him.use his balance bike. I could have got him.to walk and hold my hand but it would have spoiled the other 2 biking as we'd have been so slow. Most of my parenting out and about is about not losing a couple and trying to keep them all safe And actually I'm so cross with myself as DD has a swimming lesson on Mondays which she absolutely loves. I remembered this today at 2 minutes to her lesson time. At home with both dts asleep upstairs- so I was also so cross with myself for missing it. doolally fool!!!! So please don't think I'm being smug about how marvellous my day was.

Anyway as they're asleep and no dh to help clear up I'd best go and do it.

Oh and mandbaby you'll walk 3 under 5. You will. Get a good sling. Not much help as I had 3 under 2 for 6 months which was hell on earth but I manage to get out and do most stuff with 3 under 3 and that's with them all legging it. Actually no, DD is mostly sensible now as she's just turned 4 but would still eg run into the road after a ball. At least the baby will be immobile longer while the other 2 have half a chance to grow some common sense?!. Hopefully baby will love watching the big brothers and just get on with it. I have a friend with a baby who does just that! I'm hoping sure you're as lackadaisical as me about germs and hygiene having 2 already. That helps. The toys- well, the big brothers can hand them over fetch them for the baby and generally entertain. Sorted. Mine never had enormous trouble teething but let's not talk about the screaming for hours every day for months and months and months through reflux and food intolerances . Even the first 6 months were better than being heavily pregnant. It will be ok. Oh and the pain? epidural! ! elcs

well DD1 has cycled to and from school today (1.5 miles), and then home from picking up DD2 (another mile), and she did 40 mins of zumba class, plus playing on the road and trampolining...am knackered just typing it!!

Rhet I have just done this sleep consultant thing which has vastly improved bedtimes here but she's copyrighted so I don't feel I can post properly without breaching it

I've 3 under 4 now since my eldest had her birthday 2 weeks ago yesterday. so it'll be magically easier, no?!

Dreaming that's fine! It's not generally too bad, to be honest - just annoying and I feel that they need a bit more sleep. Issue tonight was that DD1 appeared with rash so I said she could go in our bed, cue DD2 weeping and wailing "I can't see DD1!!" - so eventually I send DD1 back to her own bed, both asleep in minutes...so my fault, really, not theirs

Have you tried staggering their bedtimes Rhet? My mum used to let me read lying in her bed until my DSis was asleep as we shared a room and used to talk for hours (and actually those hours talking are some of my best, most cherished memories, so maybe don't sweat it too much? As long as they're getting up in the mornings.)

I've been doing better today and trying to look for the bits I enjoy and keep calm through the bits I don't. I suppose I just have this "this is hard" mixed in with the fact that I had him "off plan" if that makes sense. I know nobody ever gets their perfect family that they planned but I feel like I messed it up SO much with having him young, with the wrong person, so I missed out on that early 20s free kind of thing, it's messed up the whole family planning deal with DH, I always pictured myself with several children and think that that would make it magically better in that a, more children would be more variety and I wouldn't be bored (how horrible and immature does that sound, that I'm bored of my child now he isn't a cute toddler any more? It's not what I meant but it's what it sounds like, even to myself) and b, I wouldn't have time to do the lazy shortcuts that I do now that make me feel guilty - we often lie in at the weekends and let him watch TV, get up as late as possible in the mornings because they eat "breakfast" at kindergarten at 9.30, we often eat separately because it's really no hassle at all to make 2 or 3 separate dinners, especially when we're all eating crap processed food most of the time. And now we have the chance to have more children and for me to do that I'm conscious of time ticking on, not biological clock wise since I have loads of time but knowing what this is like, I don't want to be doing it for my whole life.

I wish I could go back in time and change everything. If I could run away with DH and start a new life I feel like I would (obviously I wouldn't!). I can't seem to let go and stop doing the things that make me feel guilty, or get myself into the headspace to enjoy what I have. I still need to sort out the health insurance which involves making phone calls (mount everest, right now) and also paying a load of money which we don't have. I just need to talk to them and sort it out.

I did used to just do things like the socks, shoes etc but if I give in one time he wants me to do it every time and while I did it for a while (far longer than I should have) I started to get resentful that DH would say "OK time to get dressed" and DS would bounce into his room and get dressed whereas I would get a whiny, fake floppy person saying "I can't doooooooooooooooo it, help meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" so I started saying no as well. Now he does get dressed, but asks occasionally.

Was trying to reply more but I'm shattered suddenly, possibly coming down with something. I'm off to bed and sorry for whining just about myself again!

I would also recommend staggered bedtimes for lots of reasons. As you say though rhet it doesn't sound too bad from what you've posted, sometimes settling down time is needed.

moresnow the things which works best for us with the physical stuff is giving immediate attention to the 'injured' party, then getting the hitter/biter to find a way to make it better (this began as just saying sorry, but now they'll sometimes try to make the other one feel better with a toy or stroke or something!), then later talking about better ways to deal with those feelings.

Bertie just massive hugs to you. None of the things you've described sound like they should be a massive source of guilt. We could all be better parents sometimes and there's no harm in identifying this stuff if it gives you a focus to be the best parent you can be. But I can't see anything there worth beating yourself up over.

anothermonkey - bedtime is annoying, nothing more usually. They aren't too bad really - I just want them to go to bed earlier and quicker!! It's DPs birthday today and despite repeated reminders, offers to do it with her, leaving her to decide in her own time, DD1 still has not made a card. I mentioned it to DD2 on Saturday and she said "can I do it now?" and did. Poor DD1 this morning sees mine and DD2's card and is all disappointed with herself. I just can't motivate her to do anything at the moment - her reading has definitely slipped back from where it was before the holidays. Dishes our assessment is two months away and now it's happening I really wish it could be sooner, as I can see that DD needs strategies to help with certain things and I don't know what these are. She did swim properly for the first time yesterday though! I veer wildly between thinking she's fine and just needs better parenting, and thinking, hmmm, this isn't quite right at all. Kid ran over to her mum in playground this morning, saying "mummy!" (had only seen her a few minutes previously) - my DD would never greet me like that, or tell me that she loved me, even though she and I are very close. Random ramblings, sorry

bertie I just logged on to add that I've been thinking about your post a lot: you've helped me so much with various things throughout these threads and my last reply is so crap. Your situation is basically the inverse of mine but I relate to so much of what you type. I'm having a much better spell at the moment and I so want that for you too, but I know that what works can be so individual and everything I type sounds patronising. How has it been today?

Thank you AM! I saw your message earlier but I was just rushing out to work so I couldn't reply.

Today has been pretty good although Wednesdays are brief anyway - I work mornings and evenings. He found another conker which was "Just like Johnny!" and I said "Oh are you going to call it Johnny 2?" and he looked at me like I was mad and said "No, Superman." Of course! so that was fun. And he drew me a big picture of me where he kept running over to see what my eyes looked like or what t-shirt I was wearing etc. and then thought it was hilarious when he drew my hands too big. I look like I'm giving a giant hug though so I said that and he was pleased. :)

There were a couple of negative moments but I don't want to go into it... just stuff like is this really him/his character or is it stuff he's emulating from TV/other kids, will he grow out of that stage etc, is what I'm worried about, but after kindergarten I saw him playing a chasing game with 2 girls and a younger boy and when he caught them he just giggled and ran away, which I thought was really sweet, that he was literally just playing that game for the fun of chasing and giggling and running away and there was no dominant/aggressive ending to it which I think is what I worry about. So that was a nice reminder that really when he's totally being himself he's not like that at all and that is the main thing that I hope for him. If I could encapsulate two things that I hope he is, it would be that he is kind and that he thinks. So holding onto that is good because he shows me those things quite often and that makes me feel better and calmer.

Tough evening today, everyone tired and stressed and meltdowns all over the place. I MUST go to bed but struggling to wind down.

How's everyone getting on?

Not so great here. Ongoing arguments with DH. Tension. Me continuing to struggle hugely with bedtimes and my staying calm throughout. same old same old. We had a reasonable day for parts of the day today. I took dd to preschool, straight onto swimming pool with the twins. Straight back to collect dd. All fine. Boys fell asleep in the car after swimming. Woke cranky and hungry. Survived lunch. I then had to do a quick slow cooker meal, washing on the line, clear table from lunch and unload dishwasher. Found a banana abandoned on carpet in living room so had to do a quick scrub and vacuum. All of this interceded with arguments, snatching (2 microscooters, 3 children a biggie every day- though we also have 2 child's wheelbarrows, 3 bikes, 1 scuttle bug, 2 ride on wooden trike with trailer ELC jobbies, a climbing frame and a slide. multiple dens in the garden. seriously?! They all argue over the same thing!!). I had to stop what I was doing and intervene, soothe injured dc, tell them kicking is unacceptable. Pushing is unacceptable. You only get tour fingers trodden on if someone is pushing past. All incredibly frustrating and I probably didn't handle it ideally as I just wanted to finish the jobs and take them out to put an end to it all!!! Finally left the house and had a decent afternoon, went for ice cream/sorbet and playground. Lovely. So long as I never moved from dt1 side who commands the attention constantly. Tea time fairly shocking as both boys cried fairly constantly til I'd managed to get some tea in them. It's always like this. Some magic moments and loads of awful bits in between.

bertie I think we all find fault with our situation. I am more and more feeling sad with having 3 so close as I do think as mentioned on here there's a huge amount of sibling rivalry and rivalry for attention and competitions for everything. I need to try and stop everything being a competition (who's got dressed first? who's washed their hands first? who's got the 'best' plate? it's all pervading)

I am also banned from.my. phone in the evening by DH. I am also increasingly stressed about choosing the 'right' school for dd. Sigh.

Oh- and it's my dt1 social interaction I'm worried about and I also saw him.actually playing nicely with his twin today rather than being totally controlling so that also warmed my heart.

Dreaming you have so much going on - no wonder you feel overwhelmed; Bertie I know what you mean - we often wish we'd been able to have our two a bit closer together (there's two years and 10 months between them), but in a way I don't think there's much point dwelling on it, in the same way that there's no point dwelling on DD1's inability to remember her coat or put her shoes on the right feet. Dealing with what we have is the hardest thing, but in order to do that you have to put aside what might have been. I'm not just being glib - it's a struggle for me sometimes to accept that DD1's talents are not my talents, and her interests and priorities are not mine. Expectation can be a force for good and a really corrosive thing too.

We are doing fairly ok - things settling at school, have talked to teacher, and now we are just waiting for the assessment, and we are fairly sure that ADD (inattentive) will be the diagnosis, if we get a diagnosis. It's mild, and manageable, but does need intervention, as DD1 just finds it so difficult to settle to tasks, to complete them, even though she is bright as a button (she explained in great detail today how you might make a bow and arrow), and she has learned what she has probably only using about 20% of her brain...however, we just bought bunk beds and dd2 has already got out of bed about 9000 times