End of my tether !!! Boarding school for 5 year old ??

[scatterbrain]

Sorry to rant - but I really need some help here !!

My 5 yr old DD is driving me insane !!

Morning tantrums again !! Last two mornings she has had the most almighty tantrums about getting dressed - just refuses to ! Last night had a long talk with her about how this was very unhelpful to mummy and put me in a bad mood all day, and I have to drive to work and do my job etc etc - and she promised to be good this morning - but no - worse than ever ! We talked about doing a star chart - and she said she would be earning her star tomorrow !

When she was 2 she wouldn't let me help her dress - now she is 5 she apparently can't do it herself ! But she can - and she should at least make some effort !

She is usually fairly well behaved and very happy, and there haven't been any changes or traumas in her life that I know of - so I am a bit baffled really !

Anyway - short of sending her to boarding school or having her adopted - I REALLY don't think I can live like this anymore - have any of you wise ones got any tips ??

BTW - naughty step and being sent to her bedroom don't seem to work on this one - she just screams and screams and screams !

I am not pretending to have all the answers, but my ds who is now 7 has been through some really VILE patches like this. dd is 5 and she has her moments but nothing like as bad as he was.
I read some Tanya Byron advice quite recently which worked amazingly well (while I could be bothered). It's similar to a star chart (which I hate) but you get either a smiley face or a sad face at the end of each day. And accumulate crossed for bad behaviour. 3 crosses = sad face, so effectively they get 2 lives, ie two crosses still makes a happy face. She'd get millions of crosses for a few days but then she'd realise that she had the power to change things before they happened.
You decide what the consequences are of sad faces, or 2 sad faces or whatever.

Scatterbrain, my dd used to be a pain to get dressed in the mornings until I introduced the star chart, also she is not allowed to watch "her" telly until she is dressed. More recently as she has grown out of the star chart I have started using another idea from one of the other mums on her(sorry I can't remember her name (blush)have a jar with 5 pieces of pasta in and each job or task has a number of pasta allocated to it, every time they do as they are asked they get awarded with the pasta and everytime they don't they get pasta taken out of the jar, then at the weekend, give say 10p per piece of pasta. this is working wonders with my nearly 6yr old daughter at the moment, but I think I need to get stricter as it is costing me a fortune

have you heard of the book 'how to talk so will children listen and listen so children will talk'? not a great title and its american but it is by far the best book i have read for turning things around. if interested website is here
it really works. there has been another thread about it recently. they are also the authors of 'siblings without rivalry'
best of luck xx

Hi again,

Yes Shrub, read the book, got the T-shirt ! Some works - some doesn't !

Have been thinking about this all day and conclude that will not do school in PJs for simple reason that it would be utterly humiliating and her friends would NEVER forget it. Also - have several bad memories of own childhood and can see how doing this to her would become one of her bad memories !

Did put her to bed early and she totally understood why - also have started star-chart and she is delighted to have one again. Did think of pasta pot but sounds expensive and star chart is free !

For those of you who asked - If I try to dress her she goes ballistic - and I have to use force which I would prefer not to do. She is perfectly able to get dressed - this is not about her ability to do it - it is about her accepting that she must do it !

Thanks for all the advice - I'll pop back in and update you in a day or so ! Meanwhile - sadly have been unable to find boarding school that takes kids under 7 !!

I use the 'if you are not ready in X mins you will not be allowed to watch CEBBEES when you come home from school' I then set the alarm on the cooker and if I am feeling generous I tell him how maany mis are left. When he knows he has 5 mins to go you would be amazed how quick he can be.

I am quite pleased when he fails on occassion cos it reinforces the message.

"emotional abuse"! We all have our ways, if they don't agree with you then fair enough, but don't criticise please. We are not emotional abusers of our children. I also use controlled crying and if they don't eat what I give them then they starve, because I don't offer alternatives. But I also give them lots of love, lots of time, lots of treats, etc. You do what you believe is best for your child, all children are different. On Mumsnet you give advice to the best of your ability, it is either taken or not. But I will not stand being called an emotional abuser of my children. Never. I have never retorted that to another mother and I should like the same respect here.

Leave my advice if you do not agree with it, that's fine. But enough of the condemnations. I am very defensive about my children and for people who do not know me to make such remarks is not only very rude but very insulting to me personally.

Why on earth would anyone disagree with star charts? The majority of adults work to get paid. If they didn't need the money they'd be doing something different. It's no different. A reward from doing something you don't want to do. When you have a child who doesn't understand very much and who has challenging behaviours as a result you soon learn that positive reinforcement is one of the best ways to get acceptable behaviour. Loads of studies on it as well.

rhubarb you may view your handling of your children as you please. This was no more a personal criticism than it would be for me to say that smacking is physical abuse. If you had said you smack your children and I had responded in pointing out that smacking is physical abuse, would you be disputing this and describing my comments as personal criticism of you and your parenting style. I think not.

The thing is we are all used to the idea that smacking is a form of physical abuse, we are less used to recognising humiliations and threatening behaviour as emotional abuses whether this be with children or abused wives, etc.

This is my opinion and I stand by it and my right to express it. I have not singled you out or criticised you directly but made my own views about public humiliation clear. I have the right to do that here.

I am sorry that you found my opinion personally offensive, nevertheless but I don't see that I should fear expressing it because it challenges your ideas as to what is 'good parenting'.

I am absolutely not here to make enemies and I hope you don't view this reply as retaliation, rather that you see it as me giving clarity as to the situation.

I am sorry that you are upset by my views. My opinion stands but I would not wish for you to be upset intentionally.

We use the TV as immediate bribery, plus competition, oh and the fact that if we run late we miss the bus and have a long walk. The fact that this will also make me very late is for me to worry about, I think, and not of particular interest to them (5 & 6) I do think that it is important to plan your morning so that there is a consistent message - ie we all get ready, and then if there is time we relax. Otherwise the tempo goes from being relaxed and pleasant, to suddenly being a bit frantic. I know that when this happens to me it all goes to pot, I end up yelling, they get upset and behave badly, and then I feel very bad.
My normal routine is to get up at 7.15 and wake the kids at 7.30, they then have breakfast whilst I make their pack lunches, then they get dressed whilst I have my shower. I play "trying to catch them out naked" when finishing my shower, and that seems to encourage them! Then they get a bit of tele or to play whilst I eat my breakfast. Then I rush around madly doing whatever I have forgotten until it is almost too late for the bus at 8.30! Sometimes it is a little less mad than that, but the point is that it should be routine for them, regardless of how organised I am! Oh, and I only do it two mornings a week (dh does the other three mornings)

I'm a big believer in children accepting the natural consequences of a decision to behave in certain ways, when possible. To me taking my son out in his pyjamas (he wasn't frogmarched or shouted at or publically humiliated and we didn't get anywhere near school before he decided to go back and get dressed) was very much a way of showing him that the natural consequence of not getting dressed is NOT the side issue of me nagging and getting cross but rather that we cannot start our day because he is not ready and doesn't really, in his heart of hearts, want to go to school in his pyjamas. Maybe it was emotionally abusive but it didn't feel that way- just felt like we'd reached an understanding about an perrenially difficult issue at long last.

Good luck scatterbrain, btw. I bet the tightening of the routine will help a lot.

I think scummymummy has illustrated how whether or not individuals view this kind of consequence as being abusive because of the humiliation aspect, nobody is intentionally creating a sitution where minor emotional abuses are occurring.

My feeling is that any kind of consequence or punishment that involves feelings of humiliation (actual or the threat of) is somewhere on the emotional abuse scale.

However, I firmly believe in allowing children to experience consequences, I just don't think we should contrive them and I also think that if a consequence is going to be too severe for a child to cope with emotionally or physically then we have to step in and find another way.

In the situation described by the original poster, a natural consequence would be being late for school. If school is made aware that this is a behaviour that the parents are tackling then there can be some decent home/school collaboration and therefore the child won't be badly told off at school for lateness but the school can gently allow her to realise the disruption that starting the day half an hour late can have for her. She might miss assembly, for example or be late out to play because of having to finish off work from the morning that was started late.

Another example is the child who doesn't want to wear a coat in winter. The child can experience being cold because it won't kill them and mummy or daddy can be ready and waiting with their coat as soon as they realise the consequence for themselves and ask for it to be put on!

The child who won't hold hands next to the busy road cannot be allowed to experience the potential devastating consequences and so other techniques must be used. These might be explanation, reading a book about road safety together, buying some reins, reward systems for cooperation, etc. etc.

Consequences: Good
Contrived Humiliation: Bad (in my opinion).

"If school is made aware that this is a behaviour that the parents are tackling then there can be some decent home/school collaboration and therefore the child won't be badly told off at school for lateness but the school can gently allow her to realise the disruption that starting the day half an hour late can have for her."

Think you are being just a wee bit optomisic there.

Yep. I am an optimist. Always strive for the best outcome. Don't always get it but never give up aiming for it.

And also, I have had direct experience of a school cooperating in this way. Admittedly a small village school but it DID happen.

I think this approach is one of many suggestions that could work for scatterbrain.

Well, I have a 3.9 yr old who can pull some almighty tantrums until I came up with my alter ego - Amelia!! I am 4 yrs old and my ds's best friend.

Strange but true.

I became Amelia when we were playing a game and he will do anything for her. He gets dressed when I do my silly voice and ask him, he eats everything when she asks him, he is polite and tells her secrets and said today that he cant wait to come to my school as we can play together in the playground!

I posted about this last week and some other Mums have something similar as well.

Why not try it?

sorry haven't time to read everything - has anyone mentioned the pasta jar (or in my case bead pot). The beauty of a pasta jar/bead pot which imho is better than a star chart is that you can take them out as well as put them in.

Put 5 beads/pieces of pasta in a pot, tell her when there are 15, then 25, 35 etc she can have a treat. You need to make sure the target and the rate at which she earns them is such that she gets a treat at least once a week - otehrwise (as we discovered, having got it a bit wrong) they cease to care. We tend to have a time each day - after tea or at bedtime where we "do the beads" ie take them out for not so good things and put them in for good things during the day (it amuses them very much that I do physically do this - but I think it's important to literally put them in and take them out iyswim) Doing it at the end of the day - rather than throughout the day works better for us cos they take stock and count up and see the effect of their behaviour. During the day I am very specific about what they will get them/loose them for "If you've got your shoes on by the time I count to 10 you can do a bead" "If you push your sister again you will loose a bead" etc etc

DD1 is 5 and can be horrendous.

nannyme - do you mind me asking if you have kids?

Not at all.

I have three children. G6, B4, B2.

They are worse behaved than any of the children of parents I parent coach a lot of the time.

I come home, I am lax, my knowledge and experience goes out of the window along with my objectivity. I watch myself from above with a huge critical frown and listen to myself and wince.

Occasionally we have to have a week of doing it like it 'should' be done, i.e. careful use of language, not trampling all over self esteem, criticising the behaviour not the person, no shouting, positive attention, time out, quality time, blah de blah de blah... This usually sees us through until the next cycle of deteriorating behaviour reaches its peak (or trough, whichever is the more appropriate word!)

I also have a manic week or two of home cooked food and self baked biscuits which neatly coincides with 'good behaviour management from mummy' week.

Once I have redeemed myself at home I rest easier advising parents what to do in 'nightmare child' situations, relatively safe in the knowledge that I too have the ability to get it very wrong and very right. You cannot advise people from an ivory tower and be empathetic, realistic and effective.

In response I would agree with Scummy. This is a measure I have never had to use with my own child, but if she was behaving in this way morning after morning, deliberately, then I would put her in the car in her pjs. As Scummy said, they'd probably be so horrified that they would dress in the car and that would be an end to it.

Those who use the term 'emotional abuse' have no idea what this term means. I was emotionally abused as a child, this entailed craving a love from my mother that was not forthcoming, I would do anything to get a bit of love out of her! I would see her showing more love and affection to the children of strangers than she would me. She would constantly humiliate me in public for no other reason than to make herself appear clever or funny. She would criticise every aspect of me from the way I ate to the way I walked, I was a lab rat under observation!

I still object to posters hurling out these terms, having no ideas as to their meaning and having no ideas about the person to whom they direct their comments. Nannyme, your comment may not have been addressed to me by name, but it was directed at all those who said they would use this punishment, which included me.

You may think it is wrong to do this, just as you may think it is wrong to do controlled crying, but to use such a remark is very offensive. But there you go, such is the life of a mother! As far as I am concerned the matter is now dropped.

Scatterbrain, whichever method you choose to use, I hope it works for you. Mornings are particularly awful for everyone and when they choose this time to play up it just sets your mood for the day! Good luck.

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That's exactly how I saw it Bloss! No frogmarching, just a firm statement to your child that if they insist on keeping up that behaviour, it's no skin off your nose to take them in their pjs. After all, all they want to do is wind you up!

No.

It is still the thought of the humiliation that would ensue were they still to resist dressing. That's what gets them to suddenly get dressed in the car or at the gate. It doesn't matter that you are not shouting or 'frogmarching' or whatever.

Of course smacking (physical abuse) isn't so bad if you do it calmly, not too hard, for the child is it? Doing it this way makes it something else with a different name, doesn't it? Of course not.

Nobody likes the idea that what they are doing may be at the lowest end of abuse, (shall I say disrespect for those who struggle with hearing the 'abuse' word?)

Imagine if your boss made you do things by threatening you with embarrasing consequences. Or your husband. I think those who have disagreed with me are so offended by the idea that they may be acting a little inappropriately that they just don't want to hear me suggest it, therefore I must be wrong.

I don't suggest any of you do this with intent, don't get me wrong.

However, you can tell me it's alright really because of the way you do it until the cows come home, humiliation isn't nice. It isn't nice for me, it isn't nice for you and it isn't nice for any of our children. The thought of being ridiculed or embarrassed publicly should NEVER be the reason for doing something your mummy or daddy says.

And rhubarb, your experience or re-creations of is/are not the only circumstances that can be termed as emotionally abusive. The way your mother emotionally abused you isn't the only way a mother can abuse a child so please don't be so blinkered as to imagine that it has to be as such to qualify as abuse. I am sorry that this happened to you. I am also surprised you do not empathise more with the position of the child wondering if mummy really will make her get laughed at her PJ's if she doesn't hurry.

Am certain I am pissing many of you off as I am putting things in a way no one wants to admit to. I am not radicalist or over-reactionary, just able to see things as a child sees them I think.

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