To Smack or not to Smack

[Tigger2]

Henry McLeish, Scotlands First Minister is trying to put a Bill through that children under the age of 3 should not be smacked. What are everyones views on this. And do you think this will lead to a total ban on smacking altogether?

Hwr - You are right to be worried. If she smacks for something that trivial, what happens if the child does something worse? And if this is how she disciplines in public, how does she discipline in private? I had concerns for my neighbours child once, the advice I got from here was to inform my HV. I phoned up and explained the situation to her, she said they would get hold of this child's HV and ask her to pop round on some pretext. If your friend's child is only 12 months old she is probably due a visit anyway. Just raise your concerns with your HV and let them handle it from there.

If she smacks her child again in front of you, friend or not, I would probably say something like "Oh, please don't do that, it upsets my little girl to see her friend being hit!" This might just shame her enough to stop her from doing it again.

I understand that some mothers get so angry and frustrated sometimes with their kids that they can smack them and then bitterly regret it later, your friend does not sound like this. And as you have said, this child is only 12 months old and doesn't know right from wrong, it is totally unacceptable for her to raise her hand against a baby.

I hope you manage to come to some solution on this.

Rhubarb, thanks for the suggestion. I know that my friend has a lot on her plate at the moment, but i think she does have less progressive attitudes towards behavior etc than many. Also she once commented about looking at the belt marks her own mum had put on her legs when she was a little girl so I think she feels that this is normal..This whole area is such a minefield. My dh remembers being whacked as a child and still seems quite resentful, although he maintains his dad slapping him round the head was necessary to stop him going too far when play-fighting with his brother!

I dont think that "shaming" someone is particularly helpful...what about coaching, supporting, demonstrating to achieve the goal? Parenting does not come easy to everyone...but everyone wants to be better. People often "revert to type" when under pressure or embarassed and people have different levels of emotional intellegence/resources to draw on. I know that I can loose my temper at a certain point and that my husband never would. My sister has an even lower tolerance level than me and stuggles with her parenting also. What I try to do here is practically demonstrate what works to her. In our situation as we are sisters I can ask her permission and take over a difficult moment (she is always grateful for this!!)...so when a situation is escalating out of control we bring it back down to earth with a short time out or a calm talk...usually with some sort of bribe/consequence involved. I have found that the rewarding good behaviour ie continue to behave like x for 2 weks and we can do this etc works better in our case that the continue to be bad and y gets taken away.

This all makes such fascinating reading and everyone seems to have a valid point. But fundamentally smacking is about inflicting pain isn't it? and a) who wants to do that to their child and if they actively do that has to be questionable (in my opinion) and b) if it's wrong (illegal) to smack an adult then surely it must be wrong to smack a child.

Making smacking illegal won't stop it happening completely but will hopefully make people think about what they're doing and bring about a longer term attitude shift.

It's like the ban on fox-hunting debate, you don't ban it and it's unbelievably cruel, you do ban it and they (foxes) apparently get culled in some other inhumane way. Ultimately society needs to take a stand on what's right and what's wrong and take it from there.

smacking definately does not help in our household on the occasions that I have done it, it has been in response to my anger and left me feeling like the worst mother in the world.
Case in point: my 3yr old dd took her seat belt off today and so I smacked her leg and yelled at her to put it back on - not a great start to the day. I hate the school run it makes life soooooooo stressful. Roll on the Easter hols - no alarm clocks and staying in jimjams till lunch!

I've found since I stopped smacking my ds he's been better behaved (ha for me anyway - see aggressive toddler thread!). He very rare gets smacked now and when he does its on the bum so his nappy cushions it and I do a countdown to give him a chance to stop doing whatever he's doing - usually messing with the back of the TV and plugs.

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I have 3 boys aged 7,5 years and 6 months and occasionally resort to smacking as a form of discipline. IT WORKS!! Like you Bloss, I do give the boys ample notice and opportunity that it is coming, and most time they do stop doing whatever it was.

I grew up in Kenya and there the laws on smacking are virtually non existent, but most kids do get smacked as a form of discipline. And as we lived with extended family, any adult member of the family could discipline a child, and therefore could smack them as well. This makes children behave better around all adults. I know it sounds chaotic but actually, I find the children back in Kenya on the whole behave much better that kids in the UK.

Bloss, you are not alone!!

Oh, I forgot,I only ever smack the older boys, and even then, did not do so until they were old enough to understand (from age 5). I never smacked them when they were toddlers/babies!!

Charisma and Bloss- would be really interested to hear more about how exactly smacking has been effective for you. As far as I'm aware there is quite a lot of research indicating that smacking is NOT an effective form of discipline- I think Bugsy mentioned some of it below. I know research can be flawed though and I've spoken to lots of parents, many of whom (like you Bloss- and I'm sure you too Charisma, nice to "meet" you, btw)I respect greatly, who claim that smacking is effective for them and their children. In what ways do you think smacking has helped- does it produce long-term behavioural changes immediately? Is it a matter of doling out fair punishment for known misdeeds? What do think it is about smacking particularly that makes it the disciplinary reaction of choice in certain situations?
I think I've said before that I'm against smacking my own children, but I wonder if this is partly a personality thing? To be honest it just doesn't occur to me to hit my kids unless I'm fighting mad and since I've definitely noticed that my moods are NOT necessarily intimately connected to my boys' actual behaviour I give myself a time-out to calm down when this happens rather than give in to my urge to hit. (Oh how strong that urge can be if you catch me on an off-day!) From what you two have said it seems like you smack as a recognised disciplinary consequence of certain actions by your kid(s) rather than giving in to an urge to hit them. Do you think that as calmer people (if you are!) you're more able to use smacking judicially to modify behaviour or what? Tell me more!

I'm sorry if you disagree with me Charisma, but I totally disagree with smacking. I have got a two and three year old and I manage to control them most of the time without smacking. I manage to send them to their rooms or reason with them. I'm no angel, there have been occasions when I have reacted to them rather than walking away and have grabbed them a bit too hard.
The reason I am against violence is that I think that as their mentors it teaches them that violence is acceptable. Because my children are so close in age and still very young I have always been very careful about how they are disciplined. I'm positive that if I started smacking one of them then they would start smacking each other and I would have world war three on my hands!

My mum used to smack me when I was living at home. Sometimes she used to do it in public and I always remember how degrading it felt.

Two things in favour of smacking: it is swift and it is immediate. Sometimes a bad or dangerous action cries out for a super swift and firm response. Yes, we don't hit other adults, yes smacking sets a bad example, but also the average adult is more open to reason.

I have already posted my views on smacking, so I won't repeat them - if anyone can be bothered to read them they are aobut 15 messages down.

Tigermoth, I have read your views 15 down and they sound very fair. If the occasional smack in extreme circumstances works for you then it is fine by me!!
I've got a friend who has got an 18month old boy who seems out of control to me. My friend has found out she is pregnant with her second so she really needs to sort her eldest out.

My friend works long hours all week and is only around at the weekends for her son. When she is with him she trys to give him 100% and I think this has resulted in his problems. She is now in the situation that if she is doing something else - like talking to me - then he starts being naughty. He either starts throwing things around or if I'm visiting her he starts thumping my 2 year old daughter. My friend smacks him for this but it just makes him worse, he reacts by smacking my friend back then smacking my daughter again. This seems to carry on until her son is seriously hurt.

She has tried to put him in a room on his own but he just starts throwing the furniture around and screams louder and louder until he gets attention.

What do you think she should do???

It's interesting to note cultural differences with regard to discipline, a French friend said that there wasn't really a common expression like "terrible twos" in France as the problem doesn't really occur. She seemed to think that this was because French mamans start to smack early! Apologies to any French mumsnetters as this a very broad generalization. I (as an ardent anti-smacker) was quite shocked by this..

hwr - I am a maman.... we don't smack more over there than over here... there isn't the terrible 2 expression but they are terrible at 2 as well !!!

Also not sure if smacking is to hurt them, I would have thought it was to get their attention in a more startling manner ! (if all else fails).

I don't know about French cultural habits but I think hitting children is pretty entrenched in British culture. The statistics hwr mentioned- that you can find in the Jan Parker book- make quite depressing reading even if you have no problem with the occasional light smack. 75% of one year olds in the study had been hit within the past year and a quarter of all the children in the study had been "severely physically punished".
I've seen a few quite shocking incidents in public... girl of about 6 hit twice very hard across the face outside a supermarket by her mum; tiny toddler being accosted by b of a nanny- who was on a power trip as far as I could tell- she stood about 2 feet away from the little girl, who was just barely toddling, said "Come here," and, when the kid didn't, smacked her, moved away again and said "Let's try again. Come here," same result as the kid obviously didn't understand her. Cow. My friend disuaded me from calling her over and giving her a slap but I wish I had.

I am not saying the French don't smack.... I am saying the Brits smack as much
If what I see in my part of Kent is anything to go by ....

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My mother used to smack me. I hated her for it and it just fueled resentment and humiliation. It most certainly never caused me to think one jot about whatever I had done that was so annoying to her. But at least she mostly did it in the heat of the moment. I think it was worse when smacking was used as a cool calm premeditated form of punishment, which seems cold-blooded, to me.

I smacked my oldest sometimes and to a lesser extent my second. My third has been smacked once, when she was throwing a wobbly in a shop, and the youngest has never been smacked. When I had my oldest two, who are both in their twenties now, there were no books or courses to help with disciplining children. You were very much on your own. Today we have lots of alternative to use and I don't think smacking is useful. There is always another way. We've been through the hitting scenario. I looked out for the signs (it's usually obvious when they are going to hit!) and would hold them in a bear hug so it was impossible to lash out. Holding was a technique we heard about when trying to deal with hyperactive epsisodes in one of our sons. Smacking wasn't an option as he was impervious to it when high but holding him in a close hug was very helpful.

I asked my son's Parisian girlfriend about smacking children in France. She doesn't think there are any differences in the way the Brits treat their children to the French ways. She certainly doesn't think French children are any better behaved - her mother is a nanny for young children and she has some real horrors, apparently!!

Bloss, agree with what you say, the older they are, the less appropriate a smack is. The more you can use reason and a reward/taking away system, the more ways of control you have open to you. Our son got smacked at 3 years old, at odd times when it seemed appropriate. I feel much, much, worse about smacking him now he's 7 years old and hardly ever do. I am now trying to phase it out completely.