To Smack or not to Smack

[Tigger2]

Henry McLeish, Scotlands First Minister is trying to put a Bill through that children under the age of 3 should not be smacked. What are everyones views on this. And do you think this will lead to a total ban on smacking altogether?

Oh God, I have avoided this topic for days now but here goes!
I think everyone has their own right as to how they discipline their children AS LONG AS they are not physically harming their children. I think we all flinch when we see that mother lash out in the supermarket and there have been times when I have wanted to go up to these mothers and plead with them not to do it. I hate seeing it and think this is unacceptable. It is the mothers frustration, not the child's fault. Mine hates shopping and I know that if she screams it is not her fault, I just get through the shop and try to pacify, I can't walk away because I have to finish the shop but I accept that she's not having much fun and I can't get angry with her for that.
Bloss is obviously disciplining where she feels fit, probably not very often. A short smack (ie not hit, not to actually sting) is her way of disciplining, that is her choice.
Personally, I put my daughter on her 'naughty stair' when she repeatedly throws her food on the floor, etc (she 21 months and knows the word 'no', if I keep on saying no and she ignores me I put her on the stair, probably 4 times in total so far). Some people may say this mental anguish (I close the door and count to 60 and she screams and cries) is also damaging. For me it works. It could sound cruel but in my controlled way I don't think it is, again I insist (several times) she doesn't do it and if she persists I have to resort to the stair. It's not nice for either of us but I think it gets the message across.
I started off by tapping my daughter's hand when she was naughty but she laughed and copied me. I knew then it wasn't going to be a good option for me as I would have to really hurt her before she took notice and I didn't want to do that. Some children respond to a tap and a stern voice, what some would call a smack.
AGAIN, I hate the idea of physically hurting your child, I don't think this works. But smacking where it's more a following through of a motion/threat, not to hurt but to put a point across works for some people. I have assumed here that it is a gentle tap not a full on pressure smack, anything that actually hurts I would question.
I know already children can cry at the thought that it might hurt, ie when your child falls down before realising they have not grazed their knee they can burst into tears. They then may realise they are not hurt and pick themselves up remarkably quickly.
So sometimes they cry at the thought of being smacked, not because it hurt. The same thing could be said of my 'stair' discipline, there are still tears but no hurt so is this wrong too? I think children do need some discipline and everyone finds their own acceptable form.
What a ramble!

Liamsmum, smacking is going to be illegal in Scotland shortly.

the wise one, you are indeed very wise.
Suedoonim. only for childeren under three. We joked my son would get a good thrashing for his third birthday....the law is indeed an ass

Dear wiseone,
Thanks for calling me "stupid". I am stupid in that I don't know exactly why children hit other children, except I have often seen children who are hit themselves doing it. My 2 girls, one a grown-up, one a little 5-year old have never (so far) hit anyone else. I said "just because they feel like it" for want of being able to get inside children's heads. I agree with Wells1 that it is not an issue of discipline but a moral issue - it is quite simply wrong.

SueDonim
If the Scottish government wants to enforce those kinds of laws, let them... shame they feel they have to take that kind of action.

Oh, and I agree with Jasper.. a lot of kids will probably start getting a smack after their third birthdays in Scotland! Children should definitely be protected, but it's such a fine line and these laws are an insult to responsible parents and loving parents.

You'll have to trust me on this, everyone.... not blowing my own trumpet, but by all accounts I was a nice, well behaved little girl. I have absolutely no memories of ever hitting another child. Yet I WAS lightly smacked on the odd occasion by my mother.

Although I would prefer that children weren't smacked I agree that the Scottish law is ridiculous. It's unenforceable. The Scots Exec has now said that no one should fear being prosecuted for using reasonable discipline on their child - who on earth is going to decide what is reasonable and what is not???

I think the law as it stands now is probably adequate, with a teacher and a French tourist both recently being prosecuted for smacking. These cases show there is already legislation in place to deal with overenthusiastic smacking and a new law won't stop those who use smacking to extremes. IMHO, the money this legislation is costing would be better off being used to help parents learn other forms of disciplining their children.

But the law is trying to get the message across to use other forms of discipline..

That may be the intention, Cam, and one I agree with, but no other options are being offered by the govt. It's not good enough for them to merely say 'Don't do that.' They also need to say 'Try this or this, instead.'

Our local HV's have run PP courses during the day in the past, but as you say, Sue W, they only reach a minority, and that tends to be the one which is well informed, anyway. Maybe nursery schools would be another place to run them, then the childcare aspect is already covered.

Have been trying to catch up on this thread since I last read it, and the debate will obviously never end. But, two thoughts:
Firstly, I recently remembered some advice I was given on disciplining some kittens we once owned. This was to use a rolled up newspaper to hit the floor or table next to the cat when it did something unacceptable, as the loud bang and sudden action shocked it. Eventually (usually quickly) it associated that unpleasant result with the action and stopped doing it. Maybe something like this is an idea in some circumstances for small kids who you can't really reason with yet (presuming you can find something to hit without breaking your hand!).
Secondly, to hark back to the short debate on martial arts. Judo is the "art of self-defence", not an attacking sport (btw this is worth knowing if you use it to defend yourself and then get hauled up for injuring someone as a by-product of that defence). When upright you use your opponent's own movements to throw or topple them by getting them off-balance, which you can only really do if they are lunging at you - you never kick or punch or anything similar, and that it why it is great for kids. Obviously you need to surround that with the right mental framework, which a good judo club will do, and also leave the groundwork, such as armlocks, for older children or adults. As an ex-judo player I would definitely endorse it for kids, bearing in mind that the ability to 'floor' someone who is attacking them (but in as safe a manner as possible) and then be able to walk or run away is a very useful thing.

Why should it be acceptable to deliberately cause physical pain to another human only when that human is a defenceless child who can't hurt you back?
Our society doesn't condone violence towards adults - even against criminals guilty of the most heinous crimes. So why do we condone violence against children by of all people their parents?

I believe that all children should be treated with dignity and respect.