To Smack or not to Smack

[Tigger2]

Henry McLeish, Scotlands First Minister is trying to put a Bill through that children under the age of 3 should not be smacked. What are everyones views on this. And do you think this will lead to a total ban on smacking altogether?

I feel it is okay to spank a child when needed. I have 3 children ages 17m0, 9 years and 12 years old. With my 17mo I try to use the timeout method using a childs chair against the wall. Only for one minute. If this does not work then I will resort to a little paddle on the bottom. My son is a very strong willed child. I want to start setting those boundaries early on. Its alot harder when they are older to try and discipline. With my 9 year old I always give two warnings unless its something drastic that needs a good paddling. If this does not work then I will usually paddle. Sometimes I ground her in her room. It just depends but I will almost always give warning before I paddle. My 12 year old does not get paddled anymore. I found the worst punishment to him is taking the computer away for a while. This upsets him more then anything. I will also put him to bed very early withou tv. This always works plus he has time to think of what he did to begin with. Which is the most important thing along with giving them love. My husband and I are very religious and instead of trying to do what other people think is best we try and do what the Lord says in the bible. The Lord says as parents we are all held accountable on how we raise our kids and will one day answer for it. I feel god created everyone with a soft cushioned bottom purposley for this. As long as you dont beat your children and hit them in any other areas of their bodies it is ok to paddle. My parents (mostly my father) gave me a spanking once in a while. I never had any emotional problems in life. I dont feel you should go around spanking your children for every little thing all the time. I just feel they need one ever now and then. Showing love afterward of course.

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Bloss, taking your last point about whether the anti-smacking research applies equally to everyone, I'd just like to reiterate that I was smacked as a child, lightly and infrequently, and I can say, hand on heart, that it did not affect my relationship with my mother one iota. I really don't think I loved or respected her the less because of it.

I haven't had time to read all the thread - will get round to that later, but though I would add my comments anyway (without being biased towards any one situation).

I have smacked (little tap) my DD (now 9) in the past when she has been continuously disobedient and reasoning with her has not worked. I can say, hand on heart, that she has not been smacked (tapped on bottom!) since she was about 6.

My DS who is 5 has had the odd smack but now I find that I can reason with him a bit more so the smacking is not relevant.

My baby (5 months) obviously has never been touched and I cannot see me giving a smack until she is about 18 months/2 years and then only if she is doing something which I feel warrants it.

I try my hardest not to smack and only use it in the most severest circumstances although I hate to admit that I have smacked in anger before (which is not nice to admit, but true). I would say I am generally a calm person but I can think of two occasions when I feel I "lost it" and it actually made me feel better that I had smacked them (although never hard) but, with hindsight, I know I smacked them for the wrong reason. After one particular occasion, I actually apologised to my DD for my behaviour and said that I was wrong to have hit her.

I am going to read the thread now and see what others have to say. Have I condemned myself here?

CAM, re. the 'hitting', my situation is the same as Bloss in that DS was doing it way before he ever got a smack, and 'hitting' is probably too strong a word, it's more like a tap, but he tends to go for heads, which isn't acceptable to me or the other Mums. It usually happens when he feels other children are 'invading' his space. If I can intervene beforehand I remove him from the situation but if I'm too late I tell him it's not nice to hit, he should say hello instead, which he then does. Plenty of toddlers go through hitting and biting phases, as you will see from other threads on the subject, and I'm sure no parent bites their own children so they are not leading from parental example; neither is ds copying my actions in smacking him.

As it is confession time, I can honestly say I have never hit, grabbed or pushed my son as a form of discipline. I have grabbed him to prevent him running in the road or to prevent him snatching at or hitting another child but that is for his or someone elses safety.
Neither my ds or I are angels and of course there are times when I have itched to give him a slap, but I know that is because I have reached the end of my tether, rather than because his behaviour is out of the ordinary.
Bloss, I have encountered your nappy changing problem but I just would never resort to a smack. It is not and will never be an option for me.
How do you define what behaviour is smackable and what is not? Do you smack in public for the same offences as you smack at home for? How can you have a rule of no hitting, when as a parent you hit your child? At what age does a child know that what they are doing is wrong? I am fairly sure that ds (2.5) knows some things are wrong now, but I couldn't say for sure when this happened.
I don't suppose I will ever see why some people find it necessary to hit their children. In my mind there are always too many questions as to whether the situation could not have been handled in a non-hitting way for me to ever feel justified in using a smack.

How true Batters! I've got 2 boys and 1 girl and IME boys are much more physical (in a not very nice way) than girls.

I will fess up to being rather anti-smacking and to have actually treated my dd rather roughly in the past - for which I will always feel terrible and guilty. I am one of those mothers who does have a short fuse, and sometimes after handling your child all day, especially when she is whingy, clingy, fussing, bad tempered, she does one little thing that is the straw that breaks the camels back. I have grabbed her arm before now and swung her onto the sofa. Nowadays I walk away and calm down a little.

I do agree Bloss that there is a difference between smacking out of temper and controlled smacking. However I also agree with Bugsy2 - when do you start smacking your child and when do you stop? I still consider my dd to be a baby at 20 months and I know that she does not deliberately set out to wind me up, she just has bad days like we all do, and her temper tantrums are mainly out of frustration as she cannot understand why she has to go to bed or she can't play with the knives. I feel that smacking at this age is pointless as they do not understand what it is they have done wrong, they have no concept of being naughty. Rather is it us who are in the wrong for not understanding their behaviour and being patient with them. For 2+ children they are beginning to grasp the concept of being naughty and so a smack is more justified.

I really don't know. Smacking can be effective for some children and not for others. For instance, how do you tell the harrassed mother in the supermarket who has just whacked her kids that her form of punishment is wrong, when you do the same in the privacy of your own home? Where do you draw the line? When does smacking become something more? I am sure that the mother in the supermarket thinks there is nothing wrong with her form of discipline as much as you think there is nothing wrong with yours. Who is in the right? It is such a contentious issue we may never resolve it, but I think for now it is wise to steer clear of smacking if at all possible, it's just not worth the risk.

Tigermoth- I must admit I smiled when I read about your Mum murdering your dolls (Sorry). It sounds a bit unorthadox- more like sibling torture than parental discipline! Must have been horrible for you, though. It's the kind of thing my Dad might have done if he lost it. He was a bit unorthadox too- he sometimes gave us kids Chinese Burns when he lost his temper... (Luckily we find this funny in retrospect for some reason- I guess "childhood trauma" DOES affect us all differently!)

Bloss and Jodee- I think if I'm really honest here- and I don't want to offend you or sound patronising- I would consider your kids as babies still and therefore too young to be smacked, time-outed or punished at all really. I just don't think children under 2.5 or so have the wherewithall to understand that something is wrong or irritating. My two are only just beginning to grasp this sort of thing in the most basic terms at 3 yrs. I still feel strongly that most of their "transgressions" are very much a product of their developmental stage- ie: a result of impulsive physical boisterousness, testing of limits to see what I will do or difficulties with learning to share and socialise- the realisation that they are not the centre of the universe has only partially dawned and that's as it should be at their age, IMO. I want to teach them how to behave well and I do try to be consistent in pointing out unwanted behaviour and, if appropriate, encouraging them to make suitable amends. I think more than that- ie smacking, time outs- is unnecessary at this stage. And unfair, really, because they're acting in a developmentally proper manner (God, that sounds pompous, but you know what I mean!) and really don't know any better. There ARE usually other ways round the problem, I think. For example with the pooey nappy incident I'd advocate changing your boy while he stands up, or using a chest of drawers or changing table if one's available, or making sure he had an interesting (and cleanable!) toy to hold and play with during the change. With the hitting thing I'd try making clear that it's wrong because it hurts and asking for a kiss better but not giving it too much attention and distracting him onto something else ASAP.

(Having said all this and to answer your question, Crunchie, being much less than perfect, I have shouted at one, other or both of my sons in times of stress, deposited them firmly on the sofa, put them in their bedroom to cool off, put myself in my bedroom to cool off, and held a very unwilling, squirming, tantruming toddler firmly in my arms when I thought he was too angry and upset to be anywhere near his brother. So no, I don't live up to my own ideals. SOB! But hey, at least I haven't given either of them a Chinese Burn yet!)

Scummymummy - I really like what you said -:The very fact that she was often able to empathise with my unacceptable actions while also being clear on why they were unacceptable meant a great deal to me." that's a really good thying for you to hold on to & me too! I don't smack my kids - the oldest is nearly 3 & I've never hit him but I do shout and rave sometimes which must be awful for him - trying to reign myself in. I'll try & remember your words next time I loose it.

I'm so shocked that so many people still hit their children - including such poor, weak, vulnerable little children. I feel very sad about it. Why not change your boy while sitting/standing at his side instead of front-on so he physically couldn't kick your tummy (yes, it is possible, it's what I do)? As I said, I used to nanny so I COULDN'T hit the children, no matter how much they annoyed me, so I had to find other ways of dealing with the situation - and there are other ways that work. Would you like strangers or caregivers hitting your children? If not, why do it yourself? Babies and young children are frustrating, yes, mine has never slept through the night at seven months and I hate it, but that surely shouldn't mean I feel free to hit him in a 'controlled' way or any other way. Maybe we have unrealistic expectations of our children - thinking that they are capable of behaving/understanding like adults when their immature little brains haven't developed yet. I am passionately anti-smacking, know for sure that you can raise nice, well-mannered, kind chidren without it, and also know for sure that it can make your children resent and mistrust you for the rest of your life. It is a hard thing to say, but I know it to be true. Why risk it?

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Well put Bloss!

Bloss, as usual you have put your thoughts across so eloquently there is not much to add!

Scummymummy, certainly no offence taken, I would defend your right to your views as I would do with mine, but back to the hitting (which to me is far too strong a word, I know I used it myself), that is not a situation which would warrant a smack - as I mentioned below, I remove him if I can see it coming and he's told that that is not a nice thing to do, or I tell him to say 'hello' instead.

Wells1, I agree with Bloss' statement. To smack for (using your example) not sleeping through the night - absolutely not! And I think it is precisely because toddlers aren't capable of behaving/understanding like adults because their immature little brains haven't developed yet that they need loving, but firm, discipline, because until they get to 3/4 or so (depending on the child) it isn't possible to reason with them.

I would still feel happier giving ds a smack than shouting and bellowing at him, or threatening him with 'wait til your father gets home', by which time the child has totally forgotten what he did in the first place and can't understand why he is being punished again. Also, I am totally in control when giving a smack, I know what force is behind it - eg. when giving ds a hug I don't squeeze the life out of him, the same with a smack.

Ditto Bloss' last para - I really don't think I can add more to what I've posted before really.

Jodee, I am very pleased that you used the word 'discipline' in your message. I find that whenever I use this word, people jump down on top of me but I believe that all children are happier if they are disciplined. At least they know their boundaries. With no discipline, they are not very nice children to know.

In my dd's reception class at school there are 11 children only as it it a private school. 2 children in the class, one a boy and one a girl, hit the other children in the class whenever they don't get their own way or just because they feel like it. In dd's school no physical aggression is allowed at all so these 2 children are constantly in trouble and their parents are told about every incident by the teachers. I know for a fact that both of these children are smacked at home. I have two points, one is how do the children square home and school? And two, it is clear that these 2 children are imitating the way they are "disciplined" at home.

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Cam, while I wouldn't dispute that violence breeds violence, I'm sure that not all 5 year old hitters have been hit by their parents - in any way, controlled or not.

I certainly know of friends who do not hit their young children, yet I have seen these children hit out.

I totally agree that children hit out without ever being hit - they are small, and their brain's frontal lobe (which controls self-control, impulsive behaviour and understanding consequences) isn't fully developed so they literally cannot control their impulses. Adults who have damaged frontal lobes have similar problems. That's another reason why I am so opposed to hitting small children (or any children, come to that). If you or a family member developed a mental illness or brain damage that left you with the mind and behaviour of a child, and had to be cared for, I don't suppose you'd think that smacking would be appropriate? I know that some people think this is just a matter of discipline, but to some of us (including CAM, I expect), it truly is a moral issue - a matter of right and wrong. And it is clearly nonsense to say that only children who get hit turn out as nice children who behave well. As I said, I have a step-daughter who is beautifully behaved, charming, loves adult company, never gets stroppy, is helpful etc, but she has never been hit/smacked. It IS possible.

I too am horrified to discover that so many people feel smaking a child who is completely dependent on you as a parent, is an acceptable way to discipline a young child.
I don't think i can say anything any better than Cam, Bugsy, and earlier on in the thread Tiktok and Inky haven't said.
By smacking a child you are betraying the complete trust that they have in you. Kids are frustrating and there are situations where a smack is the easiest way to get round a situation - but that doesn't make it the best way. Removal from the scene, reasoning, supervision...these are fairly fundamental things are they not?
I feel violence, and even the threat of violence is a really bad way to teach a child. You wouldn't do the same to an adult who wouldn't do what you wanted. And a child is more vulnerable than an adult. I worry that people smack children just because they can.I truly beleive smacking is wrong and innapropriate for anyone.
It is so easy to smack in temper (i have done it myself and sworn that it will never ever happen again)but that doesn't justify it. Otherwise could you justify other forms of "discipline" carried out in temper?
I know it's very idealistic and easy to say but I believe the ideal is to build up a loving and trusting relationship between parent and child and most of all to spend TIME with them. Not having time for your children is a terrible indication of their priority. Too tired, not enough time, the childminder does it diferently...the children should come first. I know this is likely to offend some people, and i don't claim to be a saint myself (far from it!) but it's how i feel.

Dear Bloss
By my first point I mean how do these particular children feel when hitting is acceptable in their home but not at school. Surely they must be confused? Also I know that not all children who hit out are hit themselves but surely children who are hit by parents think it is normal and it may be harder to convince them not to hit other children?

Bloss - I do not think for one moment that you discipline your children as my example of the woman in the supermarket. I was just trying to make the point that whilst people may tut and say how terrible it is for a mother to lash out at her children in a public place, they will condone it if it is done in private. You obviously know the difference between smacking and hitting, but my point is that not everyone does. A lot of mothers will hit out of temper, how do you tell them that their type of discipline is wrong? Where do you draw the line between smacking and hitting and how do you get this across to the rest of the population? For this reason I think it is far wiser to say, make smacking illegal, rather than to put a lot of exceptions in the way. Not everyone is as controlled as you are Bloss.

Also I still disagree with you I'm afraid about babies being deliberately being naughty. I know my dd sometimes looks at me just as she is about to tip her lunch everywhere, and I could interpret that look as if she is saying "Look, I am being deliberately naughty here, what are you going to do about it?" But I think she is just testing the waters, seeing what she can and can't get away with. For that reason I will pick up the split lunch, give her a stern telling off and she will not get anymore lunch or a dessert. That is far more effective for her than a smack would be. I also do not see how smacking a child would teach them not to hit others, surely that is such a contridiction in terms?

But everyone is entitled to their own forms of punishment as long as it does not turn into abuse. You clearly know your kids very well Bloss and all seem happy with your discipline arrangement. I hope you don't take any of this personally, we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic!

I don't think children hit because they are hit at home. I have seen my nephew hit a child and I know that his parents don't hit him (we have talked about discipline with them). I think it is too easy to say that. Do children who bite (and there are PLENTY!) are bitten at home ???
Also saying that children hit "just because they feel like it" is a bit stupid (sorry ) They may be attention seeking.

This debate is going around in circles. Clearly some of you think it is OK to smack (and know the difference between smacking and hitting) and some of you will never smack... Some of you have horrible memories of being smacked and some don't... I don't think anyone is going to change camp on this.

This topic seems to be so controversial, it's probably better not to discuss it in the first place! I have to comment though, Rhubarb, that I think making "smacking illegal" is a bit off the mark. Physical abuse should definitely be illegal and those who practice it should be put behind bars. But you simply cannot tell people how to discipline their children in their own homes, it would just be going too far. I believe that much of a child's behaviour has to do with the nature of the child, and whether that child is receiving enough quality attention??? Regarding these children who are consistently displaying naughty behaviour - it may not be because they are being smacked, it may be because they are being left to their own devices so much that they are simply 'attention seeking' all the time. I was comparing my son (2) and his cousin the other day (almost 3) - they both get an occasional smack, but their natures are vastly different so they tend to behave quite differently from each other. One is quite gentle and the other is more strong-willed and determined, so obviously one of them is going to be in trouble more often than the other one. I think a child needs to understand WHY they do get a smack sometimes, and not just be left feeling hurt and confused by the parent's anger. If they receive a balanced amount of love and discipline, they are probably going to be more stable children.